How do they play like that on .009 strings?? EVH, Jake E. Lee, Vai, etc

[tbonesullivan]

So yeah, my favorite "feel" of string tension is .010 strings on 24.75 scale instruments.  I've tried .010 strings on 25.5 scale instruments, and it can feel a bit stiff, especially depending on what I am trying to play. I've lately been trying to learn a lot of more late 70s and 1980s songs like Bark At the Moon, Panama, The Trooper, and others.  Looking at the equipment these were played on, it seems to be they were using .009 strings, and in EVH's case, .009s tuned down a step.

So, I'm trying it on the Jake E Lee guitar and an EBMM Axis, both with .009s. I'm pretty much failing. I don't think it's the pick size I am using, but especially the palm muted parts, I just can't get the same level of crispness as I do on .010 equipped guitars.  Is there a trick to it? Do I just need to keep practicing? Or should I just go back to 24.75 scale guitars with .010 strings?

I have thought about going to the 0.0095 strings, which might solve this. Any ideas?

[velorush]

I tried 9's on both scales after watching the Beato / Shull video (they were fond of 8's that I couldn't get to work at all). Everything was out of tune due to my ham-fisted lack of technique. The strings don't pop back fast enough so there were timing issues. It was a mess. So, I loaded everything back up with 10's and my Strat is great, but the Les Paul of all things feels desperately stiff, even top-wrapped - go figure... 

I've concluded it comes down to what you're used to. Maybe if I'd suffered through the 9's long enough I might have been able to make them work, but I am not that patient. 

Lots of recommendations for the 9.5's. For the cost of one set, definitely worth a try.

[hamerhead]

I'm normally a 10 user but tried the 9-46 set of D'addario NYXLs on my LP.

https://www.daddario.com/nyxl/

They are stiffer than regular 9s, but not quite as stiff as 10s. They last longer and I haven't broke one yet, but they're expensive and (to me) don't sound as bright as regular D'addarios.

Also, EVH was known to have a super light touch. I say use what's most comfortable and not worry about it.

[tbonesullivan]

13 minutes ago, hamerhead said:

I'm normally a 10 user but tried the 9-46 set of D'addario NYXLs on my LP.

https://www.daddario.com/nyxl/

They are stiffer than regular 9s, but not quite as stiff as 10s. They last longer and I haven't broke one yet, but they're expensive and (to me) don't sound as bright as regular D'addarios.

Also, EVH was known to have a super light touch. I say use what's most comfortable and not worry about it.

Yeah, and speaking of "light touch", there is Billy Gibbons, who now uses .007 strings.

I guess it also depends on the frets as well. I have an ibanez RG that I just got but haven't really played yet, and it is a hardtail with .010s and huge frets. Playing the jumbo frets with .009s takes a light touch, so I can see why they put .010s on it. I also have a EBMM Luke III I have never bonded with, and often wonder if it's because I put .010's on it, and it has these low profile frets that apparently Lukather likes, and he uses .009s on them.

[Jimbilly]

Wasn't it Dick Dale who played 13s?  It would have been interesting for him and Vai to swap guitars during a jam.  I'm pretty happy with 10s, I did recently tune one 25.5 guitar down to Van Halen 1 (which is quite a bit lower than I had previously mentioned, for FINALLY learning Jamie's Cryin), which does feel a tiny bit 'looser'. Just for fun, give the VH1 tuning a try sometime, and that song is full of fun licks.

 I just bought some 9-42s to try on a 25.5 guitar again, it's been 20+ years since I played 9s. I think I tried 8s 30 years ago, and changed back to 9s almost immediately.

Edited June 15, 2024 by Jimbilly

[alantig]

SRV played 13s, but it's also been reported that he moved to lighter gauges before his death.  

Kind of reminds me of the story of hockey HOFer Paul Coffey.  He was notorious for wearing skates that were two sizes too small (and with no socks), saying that it helped him feel the ice better.  One of his teammates said it was painful watching him cram his feet into the skates every game.  Late in his career, he had a foot injury, and the team doc wouldn't clear him to play unless he agreed to wear the right size skates.  Coffey agreed, and when asked about, he said, "Geez - I've been an idiot for years.  This was much more comfortable."

[RobB]

Dunlop Tortex 1.5mm Flow picks

Hardtail/25.5 scale: 9-46

Trem/25.5 scale: 9-42

Hardtail 24-3/4 scale: It depends. If I have to raise the tailpiece high to get string clearance from the bridge, 10-46. If tailpiece is closer to the body, 9-42. 

I’ve tried hybrid sets on my tremelo guitars. NOT happening. The tension is all unbalanced and funky. 

Edited June 13, 2024 by RobB

[RobB]

On 6/12/2024 at 6:36 AM, hamerhead said:

Also, EVH was known to have a super light touch. I say use what's most comfortable and not worry about it.

You might want to investigate that. According to dozens of YouTube EVH necropsies, Ed had a heavy picking hand, where you can hear the strings snapping off the fingerboard. “I’m the One” is a good example. The intro and those weird fills before the second solo. 
 

Maybe it’s the brutal Plexi volume that makes it sound so dynamic? I’ve always played cranked Marshalls with a heavy right hand, but light on the fretting hand. Ed relied a lot on palm-muting to control feedback, so who really knows? Dead men tell no tales. 

Edited June 13, 2024 by RobB

[diablo175]

I had already been at 9- 42 but because we tuned down for the vocalist(s) it became imperative. 10- 46 were just flubby and sludgy. 9- 42 work well on my Floyd-ed 25.5" scale. They sound a tad thin on my short scale hard tail axes though. 

[scottcald]

23 hours ago, alantig said:

SRV played 13s, but it's also been reported that he moved to lighter gauges before his death.

Almost sounds like you're saying the lighter gauge strings killed him.  🤣

Phil Collen uses 13s as well. 

Yngwie uses 8s and like 1.5mm picks.   I think KK Downing used a hybrid set with 8 on the top in the early 80s.   

To me, it's just a try a few gauges and see what works kind of thing.  

[mrjamiam]

5 hours ago, RobB said:

You might want to investigate that. According to dozens of YouTube EVH necropsies, Ed had a heavy picking hand, where you can hear the strings snapping off the fingerboard. “I’m the One” is a good example. The intro and those weird fills before the second solo. 
 

Maybe it’s the brutal Plexi volume that makes it sound so dynamic? I’ve always played cranked Marshalls with a heavy right hand, but light on the fretting hand. Ed relied a lot on palm-muting to control feedback, so who really knows? Dead men tell no tales. 

He wasn't known for being forthcoming even when he wasn't dead, IIRC.

[tbonesullivan]

5 hours ago, diablo175 said:

I had already been at 9- 42 but because we tuned down for the vocalist(s) it became imperative. 10- 46 were just flubby and sludgy. 9- 42 work well on my Floyd-ed 25.5" scale. They sound a tad thin on my short scale hard tail axes though. 

I remember hearing that Tony Iommi started down tuning because it made the light strings he was using due to his hand injury sounded better that way.

[RobB]

On 6/13/2024 at 4:30 PM, mrjamiam said:

He wasn't known for being forthcoming even when he wasn't dead, IIRC.

You got that right! My favorite interview was the 1979 GP cover story. Said he cranked up his Variac to 180v and, “watched the tubes melt!” Marshall owners across the globe were blowing up their amps (and melting tubes). What a DICK!

Edited July 22, 2024 by RobB

[LucSulla]

I tend to be a little like Paul Gilbert. If I'm not playing much, I sometimes use 9s on Lesters, but if I have a lot of shows over a string of months, I usually go up to 10s. It's just a feel thing.  For awhile, I used .0095s on everything so I only needed to stock one gauge of strings - 25.5 Floyds to Lesters, but I've gone back to 9s for 25.5 and 10s for 24.75 just to save some money. 

I think string gauges and tone is maybe 15% a thing and 85% bullshit, and I have seen that Beato/Shull video. They go over the 15% that is real, but EQ sections are a thing too. For whatever difference there is in string gauges that can't be dialed in, there are just too many other variables in tone that make a bigger difference than that. I've always gone more with what feels comfortable and plays well over hunting for more this or that in an EQ curve based on string gauge. 

I am quite confident the reason I don't sound like Eddie or SRV has very, very little to do with the strings. 

[RobB]

2 hours ago, LucSulla said:

I've always gone more with what feels comfortable and plays well over hunting for more this or that in an EQ curve based on string gauge. 

Bingo. Fuck that, “I want the guitar to fight me”, bullshit. I like my action nice and easy and have no interest in developing tendinitis just to make a point. 

Edited June 14, 2024 by RobB

[tbonesullivan]

14 hours ago, LucSulla said:

I've always gone more with what feels comfortable and plays well over hunting for more this or that in an EQ curve based on string gauge. 

I am quite confident the reason I don't sound like Eddie or SRV has very, very little to do with the strings. 

I am really just trying to figure out how they do what they do on such tiny strings. Heck I think Brian May uses .009s, and his guitar is 24" scale! I have a BMG Red Special, and it is definitely interesting to play. Part of me is like 'maybe learning to play .009s without killing them will make you a better player in the long run.

11 hours ago, RobB said:

Bingo. Fuck that, “I want the guitar to fight me”, bullshit. I like my action nice and easy and have no interest in developing tendinitis just to make a point. 

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I'm thinking about going to 9.5s on my 25.5 scale guitars. I do a lot of blues and rock, which has a lot of bends, and most of my 25.5 scale guitars just feel too stiff. For years it was .010s on my Hamers, and I got used to that. But when I try .009s on any guitar, they just feel too loose and I can't get any type of good palm muting and many other playing things working right.

[Jimbilly]

The ability to play the tiny strings probably has a lot to do with that fine motor skill dexterity that some people have, and most do not: I could probably never learn to do calligraphy, my fingers just don't do that, and drawing anything that resembles what I'm hoping for is a frustration.  I imagine that the people who find painting and drawing to be a natural feeling thing, instead of something alien, might be the genetic sorts that would like tiny strings too. Someone recommending a different size pencil isn't really going to make me a better artist.

[tbonesullivan]

3 hours ago, Jimbilly said:

The ability to play the tiny strings probably has a lot to do with that fine motor skill dexterity that some people have, and most do not: I could probably never learn to do calligraphy, my fingers just don't do that, and drawing anything that resembles what I'm hoping for is a frustration.  I imagine that the people who find painting and drawing to be a natural feeling thing, instead of something alien, might be the genetic sorts that would like tiny strings too. Someone recommending a different size pencil isn't really going to make me a better artist.

I can't draw for crap, but I think it's more lack of talent than lack of motor control. I do a lot of things that require a high level of manual dexterity. I'm thinking it's more just.. I'm not used to .009 strings, and do I want to take the time to really learn how to play with them. I think more than anything it's actually my picking hand that feels more of a difference than the fretting hand. I learned that Jake E Lee likes to use the Dunlop Red gel pickups, which I also like, but I find them too heavy for .009s due to how I play them. Guess it's time to practice more!

[Jimbilly]

7 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

I can't draw for crap, but I think it's more lack of talent than lack of motor control. I do a lot of things that require a high level of manual dexterity. I'm thinking it's more just.. I'm not used to .009 strings, and do I want to take the time to really learn how to play with them. I think more than anything it's actually my picking hand that feels more of a difference than the fretting hand. I learned that Jake E Lee likes to use the Dunlop Red gel pickups, which I also like, but I find them too heavy for .009s due to how I play them. Guess it's time to practice more!

"practice more" is a whole nuther topic, deserving it's own thread!

[Disturber]

I used to play 0,009' in the 80's and well into the 90's. Switched to .010's perhaps 12 years ago. Now I use the 0.0095's. They sound like 10's but feel more like 9's. I like them.

 

[topekatj]

 

[JGale]

That was cool.

[Disturber]

4 hours ago, Disturber said:

I used to play 0,009' in the 80's and well into the 90's. Switched to .010's perhaps 12 years ago(edit: should be 20+ years ago. Sick how time flies).
Now I use the 0.0095's. They sound like 10's but feel more like 9's. I like them.

 

 

[tbonesullivan]

I think on 24.75 scale guitars, for me right now, 010s are right. Now after watching Englund though, chugging on .009s and then .007s and not right next to the bridge... ugh I guess I just suck. Definitely a very enlightening video (get it? HAH) showing him putting on those really REALLY thin strings on. I think that's what Billy Gibbons plays now.

Also I keep forgetting that Brian May plays .009s on a 24 scale guitar, which I should remember, as I own one.

After playing the Jake E Lee for a while now the Ibanez RG I have feels "stiff", as I guess I'm adapting to the .009s.

[velorush]

My problem resided only in pulling (pushing) the wound strings sharp.  Maybe if I'd given it more time I would have adapted, but I'm probably not that young.

At any rate, I put 10's back on the Strat and the Lester and they feel like home.  I think I'm good - at least until I run through this $100 box of Regular Slinky (yes, 60% higher than online, but I'm supporting my local store!).