Surprise of the Year: Under Gibson Ownership, Mesa Boogie is Reissuing Amps - The Mark IIC+ Returns

[tbonesullivan]

First I heard that the OG Rev F or Rev G Two Channel Dual Rectifier Solo Heads were making a return, and that preorders were being taken. Never saw any official.

Then I heard the same thing about the vaunted Mark IIC+, which over the course of the pandemic suddenly became an amp worth over 10K USD depending on the load out.

Well, it appears that at least one of those rumors is true. Do I have any interest? Probably not. Paying $3500 for an amp that is very lacking in features that I like, and probably not made at all in the way the originals were? When I already have a Mark V? Nope.

But I'm sure these will be sold out everywhere.
 

 

[RobB]

33 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said:

Paying $3500 for an amp that is very lacking in features that I like, and probably not made at all in the way the originals were? 

 Why wouldn’t be made like the originals? They are manufactured in the same factory in Petaluma, California. 

[tbonesullivan]

1 hour ago, RobB said:

 Why wouldn’t be made like the originals? They are manufactured in the same factory in Petaluma, California. 

They don't really manufacture amps using the same techniques as they did back then in the 1980s. They used to use simpler PCBs with much larger traces, bigger pots, bigger everything. The price of these is on par with the JP-2C and Mark VII, which have a ton more functionality. Until people get to see inside one of those, we don't know what is actually being sold. Then there's the issue that they can't use the same materials in the power transformers that they used to during the Mark IIC+ and early Mark III era. I've never been quite clear on what was used, but Schumacher wasn't able to make them that way anymore back in the 1980s. I doubt things have changed now.

Now, if they say use the same impeccable build quality used in amplifiers coming out of Boutique Amps and Magnatone, maybe they will be worth it.

[Dasein]

I own (original owner) a fully loaded 2C+ combo.... It's the best amp I've ever played, and the best amp I've ever heard played. Could it be better? Could it have more features (midi switching, and things like a 3rd & or 4th Channel) -- Sure --  but none of that changes the fact that I doubt there's a better sounding amp on the planet. It's that good - the mojo is that real.  My issue is - I need to get it recapped and I'm scared to death of losing it in shipping back to Mesa.It's worth about 12 to 15K at this point - so I need to insure it special just for the trip -- but losing it petrifies me. More so than the fact I'm not using it right  now (it's disassembled and sitting on my studio shelf at the moment.)

[Camstone]

I have an old 1984 Mark III that I gig with a lot. 

Found it on Craigslist in Portland. Paid $800 five years ago with a flight case. The previous owner had just bought a Mark V.

It's awesome.

 

[django49]

Some of the components used parts/materials that are now considered dangerous or unclimate friendly or sourced from unapproved places. Sorta like eliminating lead and the like.

Once upon a time these things were all over LA at very reasonable prices. IIRC, I picked up a couple for around $400 (loaded with an EVM 12L, no less). As well as other Mk series combos. If I was smart, I'da kept em all. 🤧

[Devnor]

I've owned a couple IIC+ amps.  The first one I bought in the late 80s, the crunch berries 100W fully loaded head for the then whopping price of $600.  Lost that one in a house fire. About 15 years ago I bought a loaded simulclass chassis for $3200. That one went back to Mike B and I had a guy on the boogie forums build me a headshell. Mike B performed his magic, replaced a bunch of parts and the amp was a completely different beast.  Just fantastic. I guess that amp is worth somewhere between $8-10k now.

When Blues City Music ended their relationship with Boogie, I got a steal of a deal on a JP2C head. I honestly think the JP2C has little in common with my IIC+.  Its much angrier sounding but super versatile due to independent channels and midi control of everything. But, part of the reason it doesn't have the real IIC+ sound is all the switching, bells & whistles. 

This morning, I ordered the reissue. Hoping for the best and it sounds closer to the OG Boogie.  

[RobB]

1 hour ago, Devnor said:

This morning, I ordered the reissue. Hoping for the best and it sounds closer to the OG Boogie.  

Quite a leap of faith. I’ll be interested to read if the new model compares with the original. 

[Drew816]

I mean I really "shouldn't" go knock over a few liquor stores to secure money to order one of these, but...

Man, this is a tough one. No doubt the newer, bigger badder Mesa's have more flexibility and all but the IIC's were really something else. I've only played one once, IIB's a few times (had a friend that owned/owns?? one), I owed a tweaked Blue Dot Mark 3 in cream tolex (bigger foot switcher all wired in, I did the channel 2 mod). 

I guess we wait for the reviews from those that know, and can drive side by side.

[RobB]

I had a MkllB that Mike B reworked into a llB+. I had no idea such a beast existed. 

It sounded good, but more of a refined, hi-fi tone. It had a habit of blowing fuses and I finally sold it. Currently content with my .50cal+ head. 

Edited November 24, 2024 by RobB

[BoogieMKIIA]

If you have the dough, it would be worth the $3899. If it sounded great, play it. If not, you can sell it now or later. I play a Mark IIA and only use the clean channel since I got a pedalboard setup. Don’t really need a 4 channel amp, might be nice. Should this reissue live up to the original, that lead channel would replace some pedals and be any easy setup.

The reviews will be interesting as well as any pros that get one.

[Disturber]

I stiil never have, in my life, played a Mesa Boogie amp. I would love to try one out one day.

There is an older Mesa Boogie Studio 22, no eq, for sale locally for 700$. Good or not so good amps?

[tbonesullivan]

22 hours ago, Devnor said:

I've owned a couple IIC+ amps.  The first one I bought in the late 80s, the crunch berries 100W fully loaded head for the then whopping price of $600.  Lost that one in a house fire. About 15 years ago I bought a loaded simulclass chassis for $3200. That one went back to Mike B and I had a guy on the boogie forums build me a headshell. Mike B performed his magic, replaced a bunch of parts and the amp was a completely different beast.  Just fantastic. I guess that amp is worth somewhere between $8-10k now.

When Blues City Music ended their relationship with Boogie, I got a steal of a deal on a JP2C head. I honestly think the JP2C has little in common with my IIC+.  Its much angrier sounding but super versatile due to independent channels and midi control of everything. But, part of the reason it doesn't have the real IIC+ sound is all the switching, bells & whistles. 

This morning, I ordered the reissue. Hoping for the best and it sounds closer to the OG Boogie.  

I hope it turns out to be everything you hope!

The JP2C is almost a "John Petrucci's take on a Mark IIC+" with extra crap stuck in. He also favors the HRG, so there is none of the simul-class magic going on in the that amp, which does significantly alter the feel. It also can't do the EL34 substitutions that the DRG amps could, which definitely made a big difference. I think the IIC+ that James Hetfield used, the "Crunch Berries" one, was a 75 Watt DG, simul-class with a graphic EQ but no reverb.

https://www.metallicagearhistory.com/post/mesa-boogie-crunchberries-amp

Information there also talks about various changes to the circuit DURING The IIC+ production run, which can also alter things, depending on when the amp is made. Hopefully information comes out about which "era" of IIC+ amps that this one is based on.

[tbonesullivan]

7 hours ago, Disturber said:

I stiil never have, in my life, played a Mesa Boogie amp. I would love to try one out one day.

There is an older Mesa Boogie Studio 22, no eq, for sale locally for 700$. Good or not so good amps?

Those are definitely nice amps. If it is in good shape with the foot switch that is a pretty good price. In the U.S. I see them listed for 900 - 1200, though I think 700-900 is a more realistic selling price.

[RobB]

It’s puzzling to me why the MkllC+ is such a benchmark tone. I never thought Metallica’s guitar tone was all THAT amazing. When you overdub 6 rhythm guitars it sounds like a wall of, “WARRRRRRRGH!!” 
 

The Marshalls on the first two Metallica records sound killer. I tend to lean toward those, Slayer, Anthrax and Onslaught for killer thrash metal (JCM800) tones. 

[tbonesullivan]

52 minutes ago, RobB said:

It’s puzzling to me why the MkllC+ is such a benchmark tone. I never thought Metallica’s guitar tone was all THAT amazing. When you overdub 6 rhythm guitars it sounds like a wall of, “WARRRRRRRGH!!” 
 

The Marshalls on the first two Metallica records sound killer. I tend to lean toward those, Slayer, Anthrax and Onslaught for killer thrash metal (JCM800) tones. 

Honestly I don't quite understand it either. For Master of Puppets, Metallica used the modified Mark IIC++ amps with Aphex EQF-2 semi-parametric EQs and Aphex CX-1 Compressor/Gates in the effects loop for tone-shaping. It was hardly just a straight IIC+, and they also had like 10 different cabinets they used while recording. I think the original engineer actually published his notes from the sessions in a forum somewhere.

This is why I get so confused when people claim they have dialed in the "perfect metallica tone" on their IIC+, which really shouldn't be possible.

I keep hearing about how "LA Session pros in the mid-late 80s" had a lot to do with it, such as Mike Landau, Steve Lukather and Dean Parks, and Prince also toured with the 160 watt "Colliseum" version, but used a pedalboard...

More recently I think John Petrucci has been one of the most notable IIC+ users, with several of his own, and he's also been the most visible Mesa Boogie user. Dream Theater and John Petrucci fans seem to all have tons of money to blow, selling out like any EBMM run quickly, regardless of how expensive they are. This marketing move is aimed right at that demographic with lots of disposable income and a desire to own everything John Petrucci.

It is also aimed at the people who watched the prices of IIC+ amps go from 2-3K up to 10K over the past 4 years due to huge amounts of hype and speculation. Now they too can own one.

I have made some jokes that they should make some "VOS" or "Murphy Lab Aged" examples for people who want one that really looks like it's 40 years old, but I wonder if it'll be a joke for much longer.

 

[RobB]

9 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

Dream Theater and John Petrucci fans seem to all have tons of money to blow, selling out like any EBMM run quickly, regardless of how expensive they are. This marketing move is aimed right at that demographic with lots of disposable income and a desire to own everything John Petrucci.

How unfortunate. 

9 hours ago, tbonesullivan said:

I have made some jokes that they should make some "VOS" or "Murphy Lab Aged" examples for people who want one that really looks like it's 40 years old, but I wonder if it'll be a joke for much longer.

Wait…are you bustin’ on my VOS R0, bro?

Edited November 22, 2024 by RobB

[Steve Haynie]

1 hour ago, tbonesullivan said:

It is also aimed at the people who watched the prices of IIC+ amps go from 2-3K up to 10K over the past 4 years due to huge amounts of hype and speculation. Now they too can own one.

Would it be possible that some marketing people ran those prices up in the past four years to enhance the desire for a $3899 reissue?

[RobB]

On 11/21/2024 at 12:24 PM, Steve Haynie said:

Would it be possible that some marketing people ran those prices up in the past four years to enhance the desire for a $3899 reissue?

No. They have no control over used prices. How could they run them up? The $3899 is about what a high-end tube amps costs these days, irregardless of vintage prices. 

Edited November 24, 2024 by RobB

[tbonesullivan]

1 hour ago, Steve Haynie said:

Would it be possible that some marketing people ran those prices up in the past four years to enhance the desire for a $3899 reissue?

Unlikely. I watched it happen in lots of Mesa Boogie online groups, and it was a lot of bored people who started it in the early pandemic years, including one guy who some people said had his wife leave him because he was spending so much money on scooping up every Mark IIC+ he could find. He of course would then have a lot of them put into brand new headshells he got from Mesa, and then passed them off as heads and not converted combos. Not like it really matters, but he also got called out for unsolicited PMS making lowball offers any time someone posted pictures of a IIC+ or some Mark III amps. He was also called out for never actually posting sound clips, or any attempts to show himself playing. I'm pretty sure he and others like him were pretty much speculating on IIC+ prices, and ended up making a ton of money selling them off as the prices soared.

At that point Gibson hadn't even bought Mesa, and the company was also pretty much shut down due to lack of transformers. That was another thing that really played into making the prices go through the roof: you couldn't buy any NEW Mesa amps.

[HSB0531]

On 11/19/2024 at 6:34 PM, tbonesullivan said:

They don't really manufacture amps using the same techniques as they did back then in the 1980s. They used to use simpler PCBs with much larger traces, bigger pots, bigger everything. The price of these is on par with the JP-2C and Mark VII, which have a ton more functionality. Until people get to see inside one of those, we don't know what is actually being sold. Then there's the issue that they can't use the same materials in the power transformers that they used to during the Mark IIC+ and early Mark III era. I've never been quite clear on what was used, but Schumacher wasn't able to make them that way anymore back in the 1980s. I doubt things have changed now.

Now, if they say use the same impeccable build quality used in amplifiers coming out of Boutique Amps and Magnatone, maybe they will be worth it.

I think what everyone wants is the tone of the classic, the best functionality of each version, and the build quality that can be achieved with modern components and circuit boards.

I remember the old non-grounded outlet days 2-pronged power cord amps with "this-way-that-way-hope-I don't-electrocute-myself" polarity toggle switches.  I'm glad to see the new stuff coming out that may not get all the feature boxes ticked, but gives us a consistent amp to amp build and sound quality.

On a Funny note: Back in the day I worked at a custom shop called Wachuwan Music in Bayside NY.  The amp tech happened to be my high school friend, Andy Fuchs.  I remember him on the phone one day with Mesa Engineering.   I don't think they wanted to give him any transformer part number or specs info.  So he took the x-former out & found  a Fender logo and p/n on it.  So he calls them back just to let them know he found the Fender p/n and thanks 🤣

[Dutchman]

I haven't read thru the other responses yet but after dealing with Mesa they stated that could not ever reproduce the boards that where in the originals. Remember the + was added later after a factory mod. 

Being a former owner of a Mark llB and a Mark llC+   they both although different are remarkable amps!!

[tbonesullivan]

22 minutes ago, Dutchman said:

I haven't read thru the other responses yet but after dealing with Mesa they stated that could not ever reproduce the boards that where in the originals. Remember the + was added later after a factory mod. 

Being a former owner of a Mark llB and a Mark llC+   they both although different are remarkable amps!!

I don't think it was the boards, it was the components on them, some of which simply aren't produced anymore. More particularly the power transformers by Schumacher. Either due to U.S. or possibly international laws, certain materials could no longer be used, though I have no idea what these materials are/were, or what techniques were used that can no longer be done. I've never really gotten a real answer on that.

[HSB0531]

9 minutes ago, tbonesullivan said:

I don't think it was the boards, it was the components on them, some of which simply aren't produced anymore. More particularly the power transformers by Schumacher. Either due to U.S. or possibly international laws, certain materials could no longer be used, though I have no idea what these materials are/were, or what techniques were used that can no longer be done. I've never really gotten a real answer on that.

I'm finding it harder and harder to find traditionally mounted parts.  Op Amps & capacitors especially.

And then there is the RoHS compliance, and lead content.

[tbonesullivan]

1 hour ago, HSB0531 said:

I'm finding it harder and harder to find traditionally mounted parts.  Op Amps & capacitors especially.

And then there is the RoHS compliance, and lead content.

Yeah, and I also keep hearing from techs like Psionic Audio on youtube that eventually Axial capacitors are going away in favor of radial. They are barely used in new production now, so it's only so long before they'll have to find new ways to wire up the "dog house" in all the older Fender amps.

Or they will just put tiny radials inside larger "vintage" looking cardboard tubes, like they already do with a lot of the axials already.

Edited November 22, 2024 by tbonesullivan