Changing tone capacitors in a guitar?

[Pieman]

This is a question for the tinkerers:  is there much of an audible (noticeable) tonal difference in replacing tone caps?   Either in changing the value or the brand?  

Does the pickup matter , i.e., P90 vs HBs vs single coils?

thanks

 

 

 

[Dave Scepter]

[BoogieMKIIA]

The value is the biggest factor, going with pickup type and pot value typically. 

I have put paper in oil caps and can’t tell a difference in tone between them and ceramic, polypropylene, etc. as long as they are of reasonable quality. I am not changing my Hamer caps. Guitar pickup signals are low voltage and there is no AC voltage to block.  Most guitar tone caps have a voltage rating more than 20x the signal level.

Others swear by specific types. Cheap and easy to change for value or type if you are curious (except ES-335 types where you have to pull parts thru the pickup cavity).

[Saul Goodman]

I have an "Upgrade" wiring harness coming from RS Guitar Works (If they didn't flood). I'll let you know if it changes anything. 

[Disturber]

The Les Paul I just sold had super silly expensive caps put in by the former owner, who bought them after reading about them on the LP forum. Apparently they were the rave of the week at some point over there. I could not hear any specific greatness in tone from that guitar compared to lets say my Hamer's with original caps. The LP sounded like an LP is supposed to sound, but nothing out of the ordinary. I don't believe in the caps hype, but as @BoogieMKIIA says, the value can probably make a difference, not the brand. 

But I do believe that pots can make a difference. Good pots from a quality brand = good tone. 

[murkat]

4 hours ago, Pieman said:

there much of an audible (noticeable) tonal difference in replacing tone caps?   Either in changing the value or the brand?  

Does the pickup matter , i.e., P90 vs HBs vs single coils?

Yes 

Yes

[BoogieMKIIA]

19 minutes ago, murkat said:

Yes 

Yes

What differences have you heard from changing brand/ type of capacitor? From what to what? The complex impedance will differ between capacitors - capacitance, resistance, inductance - depends on how different and interactions with pickups, pots, other wiring. 

I don’t doubt there can be an audible difference, have yet to find a technical reference that can explain it in circuit terms.

[velorush]

They're cheap and easy to experiment with. Tack solder (or just wrap) a couple of wires to the control cavity and clip a cap in place to try it out. The difference can be quite dramatic.

The Kiz' Senior^TM was passed around here for years and had so many pickups in and out of it the neck volume pot had gone scratchy. It was deemed too bright (and it was). I removed the Hamer 0.015 μF tone cap and replaced it with a more conventional (for humbuckers) 0.022 μF cap and suddenly it sounded fantastic. Completely eliminated the harsh highs, even when the Tone control was on 10.

I have one humbucker guitar set up with 0.015 μF in the neck and 0.022 μF in the bridge and that works well. I think the Lester is stock 0.022 μF from the factory, but I've changed that over to 50's wiring, which is another thing altogether and definitely affects the Tone control functionality. I prefer 0.022 μF for Strats, as well. I tried 0.047 but just couldn't deal with the mud when the Tone control got lower than about '8' on the knob. I did have one Strat that was really bright and used an 0.033 μF orange drop in it and it helped a good bit.

I can't tell any difference in boo-teek and orange drops, so I don't get all spendy. I agree with John Suhr who said most tone problems can be overcome by practice (or something like that). 

[JGale]

Why not use the best parts available. You deserve it! Maybe it’s Maybelline!

Edited April 11 by JGale

[Saul Goodman]

1 hour ago, velorush said:

They're cheap and easy to experiment with. Tack solder (or just wrap) a couple of wires to the control cavity and clip a cap in place to try it out. The difference can be quite dramatic.

The Kiz' Senior^TM was passed around here for years and had so many pickups in and out of it the neck volume pot had gone scratchy. It was deemed too bright (and it was). I removed the Hamer 0.015 μF tone cap and replaced it with a more conventional (for humbuckers) 0.022 μF cap and suddenly it sounded fantastic. Completely eliminated the harsh highs, even when the Tone control was on 10.

I have one humbucker guitar set up with 0.015 μF in the neck and 0.022 μF in the bridge and that works well. I think the Lester is stock 0.022 μF from the factory, but I've changed that over to 50's wiring, which is another thing altogether and definitely affects the Tone control functionality. I prefer 0.022 μF for Strats, as well. I tried 0.047 but just couldn't deal with the mud when the Tone control got lower than about '8' on the knob. I did have one Strat that was really bright and used an 0.033 μF orange drop in it and it helped a good bit.

I can't tell any difference in boo-teek and orange drops, so I don't get all spendy. I agree with John Suhr who said most tone problems can be overcome by practice (or something like that). 

Several years ago you made an informative post about how the value of the cap rolls off the tone and how each value does what. I searched but can't find it.

[DaveH]

3 hours ago, Saul Goodman said:

I have an "Upgrade" wiring harness coming from RS Guitar Works (If they didn't flood). I'll let you know if it changes anything. 

See what ole Seymour says:

Guitar caps

[Cboss]

It really does matter, this is what I use they are not expensive and the difference between this and just about any other capacitor is the others will just cut frequencies, with one of these vintage bumble bees your tone remains Musical as you roll through the tone knob, it's very easy to switch as some people here have mentioned, just try it and if you've got reasonable ears you will absolutely hear the difference, .01uf is the value Hamer used and it's a good one

Another good free trick is making your tone pot no load, there are videos on this it's very easy, I could convert one to no load in about 1 minute now

there are a bunch of harmonics and goodness that you can hear when the tone knob is out of circuit, Eddie didn't use one! But if you want to use it the slightest turn counterclockwise it comes right back into circuit and then you've got the full range like normal

https://www.ebay.com/itm/176770129054?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=ZbhvBOrwRFK&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=ppEzB9IOQ76&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Edited April 11 by Cboss

[HSB0531]

7 minutes ago, Cboss said:

It really does matter, this is what I use they are not expensive and the difference between this and just about any other capacitor is the others will just cut frequencies, with one of these vintage bumble bees your tone remains Musical as you roll through the tone knob, it's very easy to switch as some people here have mentioned, just try it and if you've got reasonable ears you will absolutely hear the difference, .01uf is the value Hamer used and it's a good one

Another good free trick is making your tone pot no load, there are videos on this it's very easy, I could convert one to no load in about 1 minute now

there are a bunch of harmonics and goodness that you can hear when the tone knob is out of circuit, Eddie didn't use one! But if you want to use it the slightest turn counterclockwise it comes right back into circuit and then you've got the full range like normal

https://www.ebay.com/itm/176770129054?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=ZbhvBOrwRFK&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=ppEzB9IOQ76&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I'm glad you mentioned that because I did that to my Precision bass and the Red Standard.  Both are volume controls only.  

[Dave Scepter]

A little off topic but I have a 1987 Jackson Dinky that sounded absolutely amazing but noticed it was lacking the greatness I once remembered... just lack luster in general, I actually thought it was my ears or even my memory was skewed... the original 500k was working properly "ohm reading ok, no scratches or dead spots"... I took a chance and replaced it with a new Seymour Duncan 500k pot and MAN what a HUGH difference it made!... it literally was like someone removing a blanket covering the speaker cab... "SMOOOOTH as well"... 

I am now a HUGH Seymour Duncan potentiometer fan👍🏼

Also Pure Tone Jack's as well

Edited April 12 by Dave Scepter

[Cboss]

https://www.vintageinspiredpickups.com/vipots

These are amazing; I have a stash of centralab pots from 1949 and these sound about 85 percent as great, and they are not expensive 

[BoogieMKIIA]

9 minutes ago, Cboss said:

https://www.vintageinspiredpickups.com/vipots

These are amazing; I have a stash of centralab pots from 1949 and these sound about 85 percent as great, and they are not expensive 

Have you compared these to the RS pots?  I really like the taper, these look similar. Vintage inspired seems to use the same taper for volume and tone. Some other places recommend a standard taper.  Hmm, did Gibson spec different pots for volume and tone?

[Cboss]

15 minutes ago, BoogieMKIIA said:

Have you compared these to the RS pots?  I really like the taper, these look similar. Vintage inspired seems to use the same taper for volume and tone. Some other places recommend a standard taper.  Hmm, did Gibson spec different pots for volume and tone?

I haven't tried the RS pots, but compared to CTS,Mojo tone, DiMarzio the hamer pots, etc they are light years better sounding and feeling.. I don't know how they did it actually, because I've been rold part of the great sound of the original Centralab pots was a bunch of lead in the trace recipe which I don't think can be used now

[BoogieMKIIA]

7 minutes ago, Cboss said:

I haven't tried the RS pots, but compared to CTS,Mojo tone, DiMarzio the hamer pots, etc they are light years better sounding and feeling.. I don't know how they did it actually, because I've been rold part of the great sound of the original Centralab pots was a bunch of lead in the trace recipe which I don't think can be used now

May be worth trying these on my Les Paul. Won’t squeeze the budget.

If you can hear a difference, it should be possible to measure it. I’m now retired but worked at several companies that had great labs and experts. Finding exactly what makes the difference is much more difficult. Those material labs would be key. I’ll let it be, I can go on about different ways to measure speakers, electrical stuff.

[Disturber]

To any of the experts here: what whould be a good value for a cap in a P90 Hamer Artist/Vanguard? I often have the tone knob set below half on this guitar. 

[Cboss]

5 hours ago, Disturber said:

To any of the experts here: what whould be a good value for a cap in a P90 Hamer Artist/Vanguard? I often have the tone knob set below half on this guitar. 

.022 is the most widely used cap, it's recommended by almost every pickup manufacturer, I would give that one a try

[Dave Scepter]

https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/022-vs-047-cap-for-p-90.105310/

[Hbom]

Build or buy a Green Gizmo. It will make the decision much easier.

[Dave Scepter]

8 hours ago, Disturber said:

To any of the experts here: what whould be a good value for a cap in a P90 Hamer Artist/Vanguard? I often have the tone knob set below half on this guitar. 

https://www.lespaulforum.com/index.php?threads/022-vs-047-cap-for-p-90.105310/

 

Sorry, double post as forgot to tag Disturber 🤣

Edited April 12 by Dave Scepter

[velorush]

18 hours ago, Saul Goodman said:

Several years ago you made an informative post about how the value of the cap rolls off the tone and how each value does what. I searched but can't find it.

Maybe this one?

There's some great (and more learned) information in that thread from @Armitage who actually knows what he's talking about. 

If ever you need to find something obscure and archived like that, try entering this into a Google search window (using what you do know),

"velorush capacitor site:hamerfanclub.com"

That's how I found this particular thread.

[JGravelin]

Yes and Yes, as Murkat said. Hey buddy!

Different caps in tone at the same rating exhibit mild differences in the "put forth" of the resonant frequency peak of the sweep of it yes. It IS audible. But this is also directly tied to value of the pot used and the built-in sweep of it, combined with Vol pot value and sweep.

I hope all of you are aware that you can gang-solder lower value caps together directly on the Tone control and really massage the response there. Same with resistors on Vol pots. Bless all of us who chase this shit down!

Edited April 12 by JGravelin