PAF's The Holy Grail?

[santellavision]

This just hit me as very weird regarding Humbuckers.

OK, the humbucker guitars most of us consider to be in the 'Holy Grail' category are the old Gibby Flametops like Billy Gibbons' "Pearly Gates", Claptons 335's neck PU "Woman-tone", Larry Carlton's 335, Flying V's, etc. All with either Pre-PAF's, PAF's, and even some right after that as 'Early Patent Number' P/U's (My 60's 335 has these and they are phenomenal) Here's where it gets interesting...

All these guitars with PAF's had similar pickups installed. None of current over/under-wound pickups. And, what I've read is all the older PAF era pickups were made similar and just installed into either the neck or bridge position randomly by the factoryworker. No ohm matching or selecting. And these guitars are mostly considered the watermark of tone. (Yes, there are always dog guitars and dog PU's)

Now, God forbid you install two identical ohm HB's in a guitar today. Every PU maker now makes sets that consist of a neck and bridge that are completely different! If the old way is considered the pinnacle of tone, why are we obsessed with this?

OK, talk amongst yourselves.

[atquinn]

I think the holy grail PAF-tone thing is purely age-related. Being a child of the 80's (musically-speaking) there are plenty of PAF tones that I like, but they certainly aren't ideal for me.

Now, as far as your question goes, I've always wondered about that as well. Wouldn't the ultimate PAF set be non-calibrated (neck and bridge pickups the same)? However, maybe if someone wants want a PAF neck tone like "X" and a bridge PAF tone like "Y" and they don't want to have to completely change their setup to achieve it, the best thing would be to get a calibrated set with, say, a slightly hotter, thicker, bridge pickup and a lower-output neck pickup. Seems to make sense to me.

-Austin

[KH Guitar Freak]

Now, God forbid you install two identical ohm HB's in a guitar today. Every PU maker now makes sets that consist of a neck and bridge that are completely different! If the old way is considered the pinnacle of tone, why are we obsessed with this?

Nope... Dimarzio dosn't do that... it's mostly the difference in output between the pups that are of concern... just lower the neck one and raise the bridge one to compensate...

I think only SDs come in sets... and probably a few other companies... but then again... pups aren't strictly assigned a position... put it where you like it the best I'd say...

[hamerjunkie]

One of my first homemade guitars from parts was an Ibanez RG570 that I put together in the late 80`s. I had a Dimarzio X2N in the bridge and their Fred model in the neck slot. The Fred was an F-spaced bridge humbucker, and it ripped in combination with the X2N. I don`t think I would have been happy with two of either of those in the same guitar.................

[MTM105]

I believe EHV ripped a PAF out of a LP for his Frankenstrat.

Obviously he preferred one pick-up due to the fact that he didn't have the technical know-how to install a neck pick up.

Rarely do I find myself playing neck pickup. Or even middle setting. Does that make me a snob?

I have Virtual PAFs that I installed. That could be a whole other thread.

[ArnieZ]

Plus not all the pickups had the same # of windings, as they were hand wound without counters. Also intersting is that the landmark tones were achieved in instruments that had aged also changing the formula. I have never obsessed about getting an exact copy of a tone, just one that is convincing in spirit and application.

ArnieZ

[frankthomson]

man.........there are sooooooooooooooooooooooo many variables here...and it all depends on who you ask b/c everything is relative. everything.

think; if identical pups are installed, you still have the location of the pups that are a factor...the bridge will ALWAYS get a diff sound, as will the neck pup....ALWAYS

IMO, that's THE REASON they did it in first place was to get a more 'even' sound between the pups.....like, lets say a 19' boat.....it will be subject to waaaaaaaaay diff circumstances if it was in a lake vs. being in the open ocean

location-location-location

.....and AFA 'joe blo's' *sound*, this too has many variables. most was recorded on TAPE..remember TAPE?....AND TAPE HAS IT'S OWN SET OF VARIABLES....it stretches and shrinks, even tho microscopic in many instances, it still does, and WILL affect the final sound

today w/ DIGITAL, all those variables are taken out of the equation

and in many ways, that 'sound' will never be gotten again b/c of the fact that everything today is recorded in such a sterile environment

back then, some stuff was recorded in varying *studios*...and i use the term lightly....who was drunk? or high? or whatever while taping...and do you think all studios were *hermetically* sealed like today. You had moisture, or humidity...some recorded in a hall, or basement, or truck, or trailer, ....w/ sound baffels, and w/o, w/ crappy mics of varying quality..then there's location, and bastard amps...and the list goes on...how about if the artist *just* changed his strings?...or *never* changed his strings?....then you got the whole *quality* of strings back then. You think that was the same?..FO REAL!....and, hey, how about the connections made w/ *leaded* solder compared to *unleaded* solder....hahahah....the list of variables goes on and on and on.....

trying to copy a *sound* from 1962, IMO, is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.,

......and a really, really, really BIG haystack, at that

well, enuf of my rant.

i'd just like to add that my 57 Classics in my 61 SG ri are prob THE BEST sounding HB pups i have

but know what i say to the newbies?...>>>> just go buy a goddam Squire and a modeling amp!

[tafkathundernotes]

I think the Fralin unbucker is the Holy Grail. But that's just me. And maybe Messhugah.

[Jeff R]

EVH has said in interviews that the pickup in his Frankenstrat was pulled out of a 50s ES-335.

Seymour approached EVH a loooong time ago about a signature pickup. He got to examine and measure the Frankenstrat pickup and found that the windings on the two coils were off caliber, apparently evidence of the handwinding at Gibson back in the day. An EVH endorsement deal didn't materialize, but Seymour put a dupe out of Ed's botched PAF anyway - it materialized as the Duncan Custom.

Seymour now offers a custom shop EVH pickup called the "Evenly Valued Harmonics" or something like that (can't remember exactly what the "V" stands for). I haven't tried one out so I can't compare it to the Duncan Custom, but it's like $175 or around there and handwound by Seymour. I have some friends who swear by that pickup, but they are booteek corksniffers so take that for what it's worth.

I used a Duncan Custom in my main Strat in the 80s (routed the guitar to take it). Nice pickup, a hot and bright PAF and potted. I didn't have or have access to a Plexi at that time, but I'd bet it would have sounded bitchin' through one.

Edited to add: I'm a believer in naturally aged PAFs. I love stock pickups in 70s and (now) 80s LPs.

[Stike]

Only holy if they are double cremes and priced accordinglly. Zakk likes EMG's.

[santellavision]

Nope... Dimarzio dosn't do that... ?

Sure they do. Look at the Dimarzio website under Vintage Output and they different list neck and bridge models for most their pu's. Although, not as many sets under the Shredder HO section.

I just find it interesting that even Hamer and Gibson does it. They mix Seymours' '59/JB in a lot of instruments as well as Gibby putting in 490R/490T (although crappy) Burstbucker1/2 sets in guitars.

[Guest Meshuggah]

I think the Fralin unbucker is the Holy Grail. But that's just me. And maybe Messhugah.

Fukkin' A!

[santellavision]

I just read an interesting interview with the guy who's building the limited replicas of EVH's guitar. He said when they pulled the p/u out to duplicate it, it registered 0 on his ohm meter. He thought he broke it taking it out and freaked! But they tested it and it sounded great. It was definitely messed up, but in a good way. Go figure!

[thecajunboy]

Some of the answers were in the question. All the pickups were made the same, at least they thought so. As was mentioned, with no counters, the turn counts were not consistent, as likely were the winding patterns. There's a good chance nobody was checking gauss levels of the magnets either. All this was a certain recipe for variation from pickup to pickup, and likewise from guitar to guitar.

In today's world, the pickup makers have studied the PAFs that produced the most pleasing tones, and tried to copy them. I'd venture a guess that they've found differing values to work better, or reproduce those tones more accurately the way they're doing them today.

[Guest Mike Lee]

Jeff, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Ed's pickup was a PAF, so it should have been wound to about 8 kohms give or take. The story I heard was that one of the coils was partially shorted out, creating an unbalanced pickup similar to a Fralin Unbucker. You can certainly hear some of the "single-coil-ness" of an unbalanced humbucker in EVH's tone, especially when he turns down plays cleaner stuff.

The Duncan Custom is a hot wound ceramic magnet humbucker, and I've measured them at over 14 kohms - way hotter than any PAF would ever have been wound. And Ed's PAF should have had an alnico magnet too. It's possible Seymour was trying to copy a sound and used different wire and magnets to achieve it. But it just doesn't seem likely given Seymour's design ethos.

A LOT of Ed's tone is in the way he plays and in his amps/effectsa. Hot for Teacher was recorded with a stock Gibson Flying V because he needed two pickups - neck with volume rolled down for clean rhythm and bridge full on for crunch rhythm and lead. Notice there is no trem use on that song. Tone wise, it is close enough to any other song recorded with the Frankenstein guitar or the 5150 guitar that you wouldn't notice any difference.

[santellavision]

There a lot to the being 'unconventional'. That's the way WCR does it. Jim threw out all the rules and build each PU to its final tone, not by original manufacturing or materials.

[hamersandstrats]

There a lot to the being 'unconventional'. That's the way WCR does it. Jim threw out all the rules and build each PU to its final tone, not by original manufacturing or materials.

I don't understand WCR's philosophy at all. How can he call one set of pickups "darkbursts" and another "crossroads" when the guitar they will eventually be put in and the amp they are played through mught not even remotely resemble that tone? Is he saying that "if you put my darkbursts in a vintage LP and play through vintage Marshalls, you will sound like Duane?" Or, "if you put my pickups in your double humbucker squier strat and play through a (insert crappy SS amp here), you will sound like Duane?" Talk about hype.

I have only heard his pickups once, in a Les Paul through a Rivera Amp, and they didn't stand out in any way from the Duncans and Gibson pickups I was playing through the same amp.

I'm not knocking the tone or quality of the WCRs, but I don't like the marketing hype or the way he is trying to capitalize on other people's tones. I hope hes paying royalties to Clapton and Duane's family.

[kizanski]

I don't understand WCR's philosophy at all. How can he call one set of pickups "darkbursts" and another "crossroads" when the guitar they will eventually be put in and the amp they are played through mught not even remotely resemble that tone? Is he saying that "if you put my darkbursts in a vintage LP and play through vintage Marshalls, you will sound like Duane?" Or, "if you put my pickups in your double humbucker squier strat and play through a (insert crappy SS amp here), you will sound like Duane?" Talk about hype.

It's called "Marketing."

[MCChris]

I don't understand WCR's philosophy at all. How can he call one set of pickups "darkbursts" and another "crossroads" when the guitar they will eventually be put in and the amp they are played through mught not even remotely resemble that tone? Is he saying that "if you put my darkbursts in a vintage LP and play through vintage Marshalls, you will sound like Duane?" Or, "if you put my pickups in your double humbucker squier strat and play through a (insert crappy SS amp here), you will sound like Duane?" Talk about hype.

It's called "Marketing."

+1

I'd find it more offensive if Clapton, the Allman estate or anyone else for that matter sought to copyright (and thus receive residuals from the use of) common words like "crossroad," "dark" or "burst."

[cmatthes]

+1

I'd find it more offensive if Clapton, the Allman estate or anyone else for that matter sought to copyright (and thus receive residuals from the use of) common words like "crossroad," "dark" or "burst."

Yeah, but if they don't, Henry or FMIC WILL !!

Speaking of which, has Gibson released that Anna Nicole tribute Super 400 yet?

[kizanski]

I don't understand WCR's philosophy at all. How can he call one set of pickups "darkbursts" and another "crossroads" when the guitar they will eventually be put in and the amp they are played through mught not even remotely resemble that tone? Is he saying that "if you put my darkbursts in a vintage LP and play through vintage Marshalls, you will sound like Duane?" Or, "if you put my pickups in your double humbucker squier strat and play through a (insert crappy SS amp here), you will sound like Duane?" Talk about hype.

It's called "Marketing."

+1

I'd find it more offensive if Clapton, the Allman estate or anyone else for that matter sought to copyright (and thus receive residuals from the use of) common words like "crossroad," "dark" or "burst."

Or "You're fired" ...or... "That's hot" ...or... "Boobies, baby. Boobies!" (Oh, wait... that was me).

[tomteriffic]

I don't know what my favorite pickups are in the humbucker realm. When I was a kid, guitars with PAF's were still being made and by the time I got my own rig, a Burst was just a used guitar. One criterion I've always used, though, was the sound of the late PAF/early Pat. No. pickups wide open, both of them on, into something that said "Fender" and "Reverb" on it. Splang a couple of R & B barre chords on it and either it was there or it wasn't, whatever "it" is. It's just something in the midrange that forces you to grin. I've found it in 80's LP Studios (I believe they were 490's in there), an early '70's ES-175 a '94 Special FM, a boatload of mid-60's SG Standards, and numerous others, not necessarily Gibsons.

Rant mode off.

[Guest Meshuggah]

The neck pup on my 78 Sunburst (still for sale) is like 0.3K hotter than the bridge.

I like boobies.

Me a name I call myself.

Far a long, long way from home.

[tomteriffic]

The neck pup on my 78 Sunburst (still for sale) is like 0.3K hotter than the bridge.

I like boobies.

Me a name I call myself.

Far a long, long way from home.

OK, that's it, call the rubber truck!

[jisham]

Yep, the recent Guitar World with EVH on the cover (plastic surgery anyone???) clearly says the PAF in Eddie's Frankenstrat currently measures 0 ohms.