Why not so much love for Hamer on the bay and TGP

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

I think it is due to marketing.

They didn't have a truly guitar-god guitarist endorse them, which probably didn't help.

But when I found the Korean Hamer Stellar 1 that seduced me into the Hamer world, I couldn't find clear descriptions of what was a USA Hamer or import Hamer anywhere in a whole weekend of internet searching. I found plenty of contradictory information. I found plenty of Hamer USA information that didn't mention any of the imports, which just added to the confusion. This was just last October.

Now I'm clear on all the differences. Now that I understand the whole system it is clear as a bell: if it has USA on the headstock, it is a premium guitar; if it doesn't, it is an import.

But aside from 2-3 good articles that take days of searching to stumble upon, there isn't much out there to make all that clear. This board and the Hamer Museum board (I'm guessing on the latter, I've never been there) provide great info, but I think you almost have to be a member to see most of it.

You wouldn't believe how high my blog is on various Hamer searches, and I've only posted about a dozen times on how much I love Hamer guitars...and half of those were how pleased I was with the imports despite being so inexpensive, and the other half with how stunned I was that the USAs were so much better and worth every penny and more.

It also doesn't help that Harmony Central's Hamer page is just as f'd up and confusing as all the rest of the Hamer info out there.

Maybe all the Youtubes of Lady Scary will help.

I'm going to keep posting praises of Hamer, myself. Maybe it will contribute.

But in the final analysis, I have to agree with the sentiment of the difference between value and resale prices. I have purchased so many USAs because of some notion that they will only increase in resale value over the next 20-30 years, and I will have several excellent vintage instruments to pass on to grandkids...but except the 2 that I bought for resale when I was [slightly more] ignorant [than I am now], I didn't buy any to sell, I bought them because they had a price that made the value irresistible. Do I need 3 Centauras and a Diablo? That's a lot of redundancy. But I couldn't help it. And then when I saw the modified Special and the beater set-neck Chappie, how could I not find the cash for those low-priced mojo queens?

I do sorta hope Hamers suddenly become big-time popular, because I want to be able to brag about how cheap I got the tobacco-burst Centaura, but if it were suddenly or someday worth $25k, that would just make me brag more, it wouldn't make me willing to part with it.

[teleman]

First let me say that the Monaco Elite Mahogany is a tone machine! No bling and all zing! Someone got a spetacular buy on that guitar.

Secondly, there is good resale in "collectable" Hamers. Price a Virtuoso if you can find one. Standards and Sunbursts from the 70's bring very repectable prices and prices for older Hamers are rising. Albeit not like a rocket but they are going up. Been pricing T51 or Daytona's lately? I bought many of them not too lang ago for $300 to $400. They routinely fetch $750 + in good shape an I recently saw a NOS T51 that someone bought for $1000.

New Hamers are priced competively with the other premium brands and you get a guitar that has more "hands on" in its manufacture than any of them. As for me, I like the fact that Hamers are "under the radar". that's more buying power for us for guitars with quality that is second to none.

[tombo]

How do you explain the prices of Tyler guitars then? That's unquestionably the ugliest headstock in the biz (although I find it oddly appealing for that exact reason).

MCChris,

This is an easy one: Michael Landau. Landau plays it, and a legion of followers start the word of mouth thing on the net. He plays a guitar - they buy it. A pedal - they buy it. There's a homepage called "Huge Racks Inc." that is full of Landau and Scott Henderson worshippers. I love both those guys, but the bottom line is: they play everything. Whatever sounds good - they play. You could see an endorsement by Scott Henderson one month, and six months later he's using a new pedal or a new cable. Most people don't need to worry about their gear, just play. Hmm....maybe I should take my own advice

Back on topic...

The Monaco Elite Mahogany IS A TONE MACHINE!!! I want one in orange also!

[karmma1]

In my opinion, Hamer lost the game in the 80s. Poor choices or bad luck in the artists who were Hamer endorsees. One thing that hurt them was the whole Rick Nielson thing. No offense to Rick, but he, or rather his stage persona, is seen by many people as just..well, just kinda goofy. People do buy guitars based on the image the company presents, we all know that. Frankly, even if they respected Cheap trick (though not everyone did) not many people wanted to be associated with Nielson, who was regarded as a novelty. Of course there were other notable endorsers, but Nielson was the most prominent...i am speaking from recall, as i lived through the 80's, and was active in bands, had subscrptions to all the major mags, etc.

Judas priest added to the problem by playing some of the more odd-shaped Hamers...Outside of the Warlock, Randy Rhoads, and maybe the Iceman, not too many of the less-traditional body shapes from any major manufacturers were/are greatly received by the guitar-playing masses in any great numbers. This is still true today. They can be made a as specialty guitars by an established builder, but offered as a main line model? Generally not a good idea.

So, you had people thinking "hmm, Hamer...that goofy guy and those ugly Judas Priest guitars...oh yeah, that guy for Billy Idol (another act that was quite shunned by many metallurgists/rockers) plays them too...eh, no thanks". I'm sure quite a few Hamers never even got picked up in the music store just for this reason, passed by for the Jacksons, Gibbys, Fenders, BC Rich's etc.

This type of stigma is difficult to overcome in a fickle and image-driven niche market such as guitars.

The final nail in the coffin was giving in to the "we'll have to offer offshores-made models, like all the other guys" but not maintaining high quality standards (as much as possible, i know back then the skillz of offshore builders were across-the-board much crappier than they are today). Frankly, Slammers were junk in most cases.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, Hamer USA continued to build extremely high-quality guitars with uncanny consistency, and still do to this day. Unlike a Gibson or a Fender, you pretty much know if you are picking up a USA Hamer from any era, it's going to be good. Actually more than good. In fact, i've wanted to ask for some time, now seems like a good time to do so...has anyone here EVER owned or picked up a USA Hamer that was questionable in quality? I havent. The only other manufacturers i would say that about are PRS and G&L, and my experience with them is rather limited (there probably are others, but again, i am speaking from experience). That means more to me than anything else...if i buy a Hamer USA, i simply have no worries that it will arrive and i'll discover it's a POS. I would have serious concerns about buying a Gibson or a Fender in a scenario where i couldn't play it first (like an Ebay purchase). In contrast, i would have no qualms about buying a Hamer without closely inspecting it.

As for the TGP guys (and again, i am speaking in general, not lumping everyone in)...many there seem often to be out to out-impress each other and outdo one another by owning the most super-elite-boutiqey guitars and amps available. They are buying exclusivity and bragging rights. Despite the fantastic quality of Hamers, they are not a valuable currency in the bragging-rights market, plain and simple. Probably in part because they've been around so long...they are too established to be the next "object-de-lust" amongst buyers with that mentality.

Sooo...i'll ring a bell for the Hamer Fan community, and say that in general, there is a respect for what actually matters...insanely great build quality and delicious tone for days, and less of the "hottest-new-kid-in-town", "looky what i got, a 4000 dollar XYZ-Deluxe" mentality.

It is a mystery to me how Hamer continues to stay afloat, in the face of such drastic resale shortcomings, but whatever it is they are doing, i am glad they do it.

**Only my $.02, and hope i didn't offend any Nielson/Stevens/etc fans too much.

[Feynman]

This type of stigma is difficult to overcome in a fickle and image-driven niche market such as guitars.

Nicely said.

[Jorge]

Headstock shape.

Other reasons too, as they have been thorougly explained.

But the headstock thing is amazing. It is so easy to change, it costs nothing.

But they won't.

[Hgb5000]

I agree with karmma1 about quality assurance. I have bought all of my Hamers without ever playing any of them first. I always trusted the quality and set up.

[specialk]

Headstock shape.

Jeez I hope everyone is joking about the headstock shape being the reason for the hate.

I like the looks/shape of it.

As I doubt I'll ever afford a new USA Hamer, I am thankful for the chance to get a quality guitar at a price I can pay, used.

[Guest pirateflynn]

Hamer is also in competition with itself. For example, it's difficult to spend $2K on beautiful used 2008 Artist Custom when there is an equally beautiful 1996 for $1,100. The prices keep dropping until they are competitive.

[jisham]

Lots of great points in this thread.

I've said for years that Hamer has marketing and availability problems. WE all know just about any USA Hamer off the rack or site unseen is going to be killer, but lots of people don't because only a handful of dealers carry them.

As for their marketing...don't get me started. There's just no way to attract younger players if Hamers aren't being played by the artists they listen to...plain and simple.

[jwhitcomb3]

Lots of great points in this thread.

I've said for years that Hamer has marketing and availability problems. WE all know just about any USA Hamer off the rack or site unseen is going to be killer, but lots of people don't because only a handful of dealers carry them.

As for their marketing...don't get me started. There's just no way to attract younger players if Hamers aren't being played by the artists they listen to...plain and simple.

I must be the odd man out, because I've never bought a guitar because of a connection to a celebrity. It just doesn't enter my mind when choosing an instrument!

-Jonathan

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

I must be the odd man out, because I've never bought a guitar because of a connection to a celebrity. It just doesn't enter my mind when choosing an instrument!

-Jonathan

But if you hear a guitar sound you really like, and you can tell which guitar is making it because the guitar has a big freaking logo on it or the guitarist says "thanks" in the liner notes, then you would probably start with that guitar to try and get the same sound.

But you can't start with a Hamer to get that sound if none of your favorite guitarists are making your favorite tone on a Hamer.

[seeker]

I must be the odd man out, because I've never bought a guitar because of a connection to a celebrity. It just doesn't enter my mind when choosing an instrument!

-Jonathan

For guitar brand, no. For guitar type, yes. Heritage 150 with Gibby T-Top for 73 era Page.

Have to admit that when I started on bass many moons ago, that did come into play (McCartney, Chris Squire, Lemmy). But that was because no one made a Rickenbacker-sounding bass except Rickenbacker.

[jisham]

Lots of great points in this thread.

I've said for years that Hamer has marketing and availability problems. WE all know just about any USA Hamer off the rack or site unseen is going to be killer, but lots of people don't because only a handful of dealers carry them.

As for their marketing...don't get me started. There's just no way to attract younger players if Hamers aren't being played by the artists they listen to...plain and simple.

I must be the odd man out, because I've never bought a guitar because of a connection to a celebrity. It just doesn't enter my mind when choosing an instrument!

-Jonathan

It's not about "connection to a celebrity" in my mind -- it's about visibility of the brand. Guess I could've made that more clear. Besides Tom Dumont, there's no modern era guitarist I know about who plays Hamers.

I bought my first Hamer, a Standard Custom, because it looked cool as hell and I wanted that shape/look. At the time, I knew nothing about Hamer the brand.

[Feynman]

I must be the odd man out, because I've never bought a guitar because of a connection to a celebrity. It just doesn't enter my mind when choosing an instrument!

-Jonathan

I think it does make you an odd man out. A smart man, but I bet a rare exception.

[MCChris]

It's not about "connection to a celebrity" in my mind -- it's about visibility of the brand. Guess I could've made that more clear. Besides Tom Dumont, there's no modern era guitarist I know about who plays Hamers.

There are a few country guitarists who play them. That's the market they should be hitting hard. I don't see their newer models resonating with today's rock or metal players.

That said, it sure seems that Hamer could care less about artist endorsements, other than a handful of Jol's personal favorite players. One of the many things about Hamer that's at once maddening and admirable.

[jisham]

It's not about "connection to a celebrity" in my mind -- it's about visibility of the brand. Guess I could've made that more clear. Besides Tom Dumont, there's no modern era guitarist I know about who plays Hamers.

There are a few country guitarists who play them. That's the market they should be hitting hard. I don't see their newer models resonating with today's rock or metal players.

That said, it sure seems that Hamer could care less about artist endorsements, other than a handful of Jol's personal favorite players. One of the many things about Hamer that's at once maddening and admirable.

Which begs the question: when Jol and his "favorite players" are no longer around or visible, what happens with Hamer?

[specialk]

when Jol and his "favorite players" are no longer around or visible, what happens with Hamer?

Their used prices go through the roof!

[diablo175]

Hate to sound completely out of touch but WTF is TGP?

[Devnor]

Tag's Gear Page

[diablo175]

It's not about "connection to a celebrity" in my mind -- it's about visibility of the brand. Guess I could've made that more clear. Besides Tom Dumont, there's no modern era guitarist I know about who plays Hamers.

There are a few country guitarists who play them. That's the market they should be hitting hard. I don't see their newer models resonating with today's rock or metal players.

That said, it sure seems that Hamer could care less about artist endorsements, other than a handful of Jol's personal favorite players. One of the many things about Hamer that's at once maddening and admirable.

If Hamer started to make the kind of guitars rockers and metal players wanted to play, we wouldn't need to be prowling E(vil) Bay for their older no-longer-in-production models! Those are some damned fine gee-tars!

[Devnor]

Jay makes a great point...nobody is playing Hamers and there's nowhere to play a Hamer. How many people actually care what Tom Dumont plays besides Hamer fans? For regular folks, 50% deposit on a $4000+ instrument is tough for any first timer. Hamer fans like me get ignored. Its amazing they are still in business.

[Grimm Pickins]

This both drives me insane and makes me a happy player - I just can't afford the new prices, as much as I feel they are truly worth it. When I eventually go down that road, I'll make sure it's one to never part with...

My first Hamer was a late 90s Studio, which I bought from a music store I worked at (new) - after playing it, I didn't complain about the price (which was better with my discount) - I was also unaware of anyone playing them until I bought one (I had seen a few ads in Guitar Player). The store, of course, stopped carrying Hamer as they didn't move well, everyone wanted one of the big two logos on their headstock. I gave them shit for not trying harder, but they all played Fenders and Gibsons themselves.

I held onto that guitar longer than any other axe, probably 5-6 years - only giving it up to buy a "metal axe" upon moving to Vermont (when I came here, the only players I found immediately were heavy rockers). I regret the day I sold it for an early Japanese Jackson (Kelly). I also miss my Bluesbreaker Marshall (possibly the worst tube amp for metal, YMMV). I was on the board during those days, but I went away in shame... and went through endless lackluster axes searching for the elusive "tone".

I also remember how badly I wanted a Newport when they first hit... It took me 10 years, but I eventually went for it... Again, I really don't know of any "famous" musicians playing those... I got distracted by Gretsch, who have a huge roster. Know what? My Newport does rockabilly as well as a entry level 6120, and has fewer problems with fit and finish. Any cats playing them in rockabilly? Nope, 'fraid not. Why? Other than hero worship and the shallow body depth, I really can't say... Even Sparrow has made a serious in-road into that arena, and not just for the Big Daddy.

It is a pitiful shame that assembly lined, mass produced instruments that are inferior (IMHO) hold their value better - and actually gain value. I've never played a neck I like more, and the only other guitar I miss as much as that Studio was my old Rickenbacker 330 Custom...

I could rant on this, like most of you, for quite some time. I'm not certain that Hamer really wants the attention, though I wonder where Fender will stand on that...

Grimm

[gorch]

Lots of great points in this thread.

...

...-Jonathan

...Besides Tom Dumont, there's no modern era guitarist I know about who plays Hamers...

Listen to LinkinPark and you will hear Hamer guitars. The statement is to much general. There are younger players around. The case remains. It is a small brand that just cannot be found everywhere.

[peedenmark7]

I am still amazed at how often I will see Hamers go for so much less than a bolt-on strat style guitar or even a Partscaster that someone assembled in their basement from various suppliers.

Tonight, I watched a beautiful Hamer Monaco Elite sell for less than $800.00 on ebay, while there are scores of bolt-on guitars of all types on TGP that seem to sell for more than $1,000.00, much more for the more respected builders. (I already have a Superpro and I had set $750 as my limit on the Elite - now I regret not bidding a little higher.)

Although I have never had the pleasure to actually play a Tom Anderson, Suhr, Grosh, etc., I am sure they build really great guitars, but Hamer also seems to consistently build very good guitars and just doesn't always seem to get the same street cred. On Harmony Central, you may read some complaints about the SD pickups in certain Hamer models, but Hamers always score huge numbers overall and especially on the build quality and set-up direct from the factory.

Why do you think Hamer doesn't seem to carry the mystique of certain other names (many of which are much newer in the business)?

I am sure this has been covered during the replies here, but my take on terrible hamer resale over the years has been the lack of 100% original hamer design ideas.

thats not to say that other brands are devoid of copped fender/gibson ideas, but if you look at the hamer catalogs one theme keeps repeating over and over and that theme is the lp jr.

call it an artist, give it a numerical designation, its still the sunburst/special of old with an exotic fancy wood top, new inlays or pickup configuration. granted this has been a proven seller for them, but how many ways can you reinvent the mouse trap before we see it for what it really is ?

I really saw the writing on the wall for hamer by say 1986. when the sunburst/special began to wain in sales, they jumped the jackson bandwagon [as did everyone else] copping the soloist in the form of the chaparral and the cali. [great guitars] but again a spin on someone elses success. some command money and then some but for the most part the masses still say who cares !

aside from the original standard which though a copy guitar is in a class all by its self and by way of the ultimate fender or gibson "copy guitar" commands crazy bucks today..., so take a look at what hamers usually command better money, its the ones that are hamer original body designs.

the proto-1 [my fave hamer], phantom,virtuoso, even the scarab and scepters typically command more money and interest, that is if hamer didnt slap on the "common" candy apple red or metallic shit blue on them, susblock trem them or the unthinkable adding a kahler [the death nail of many a fine guitars value].

[no digs serial ]

its not that hamer ever built a bad guitar, as even what many collectors and player/fans would claim as hamers worst attention to detail years , come out in the wash as still far better than the worst of other companies that skyrocketed during the same time frame.

whether you love the old ones or the new ones, the fact is today hamer builds a better guitar.

compare them to the old ones side by side, unless jaded and skewed one would be sore pressed to make the claim that the old ones are better made. the tooling back in the day was overworked and run down.

yet resale on the newer ones is abismol as well...

why is that ?

the guitars are priced high for what you get in my opinion. the up charges are through the roof for the simplest of deviations from the fries and shake catalog offerings IN COMPARISON WITH OTHER MANUFACTURERS who have all of their production year quirks on a cad file and dont ask for your first born to make a change.... AND the designs in my opinion are still not trend setting . hamer is still beating the lp jr drum.... and though the hollow body monaco and whatever else theyre doing along those lines may take some money away from gibson, I think its a bit late to change direction and not a good business move to alienate the base core that grew up with your product as there are only going to be so many new comers

finding your product as time marches on..

I will say that I really dig the recent Tally, its again a spin on another brands guitar and somewhat a rethought TLE of old , but hey.... I am down with it... its fresh for a hamer.

simply put the guitars "to me" the new hamers are geared towards an older player, maybe even a more mature player, jazzy looking and feeling...

now at 40 something, I am not jumping around the house in my underwear with a graphic'd vector spilling beer all over my mothers furniture jamming to judas priest, but I would like to see some of the things that initially brought me to hamer still being offered.

plainly put, the standard if thats all is left is great, but not practical at least to me.

however, I still consider myself a "core base" hamer fan..... I just grew tired of the same ole same oleand like many moved on .

I love old hamer guitars, but find that every few years I liquidate almost in entirety my collection as I grow tired of playing 24 3/4 scale guitars . lets face it they cheap to add to a collection .

I do gravitate towards strat and tele 25 1/2 style guitars though I'll be quick to add that I have no interest in fender garbage.

though I always had them laying around,I left the hamer ranks in '84 for jackson,..they built a better guitar and it suited my needs to the letter at that time. today some of those guitars sit in the closet as my style and tastes have moved forward and on to other brands.

in the end beauty is in the eye of the beholder, its great that we all have different tastes and needs as players, whats the end all be all to one is shit to another..... after 30 some years I believe the masses have made it clear that they wont [at least for now] be spending heavily for most hamer designs on the used market.