So, time to write Hamer's obituary?

[edgar_allan_poe]

Paid endorsements can get expensive.

Disagree. Paid endorsements to people who the majority of the guitar buying public don't give a shit about get expensive. Endorsements to people with juice in the guitar buying market pay for themselves over and over and over again.

Steve Stevens, Uncle Dick, and Tom Dumont (sp?) do not in any way shape or form equal Dave Navarro, Johnny Hiland, and David Grissom (note that I didn't even use the big hitters from PRS) to the masses. Hamer fans, yes...but not the rest of the guitar playing world.

[Jorge]

But then there's Taylor. Bob Taylor does not give away guitars, Yet they're all over the place and highly visible.

When nobody finds your guitars ugly, you can do that.

[BCR Greg]

Jol and Frank explained their position on free guitars at an early open house. Free guitars do not guarantee anything other than the company is out of a guitar. Paid endorsements can get expensive.

Guess they were wrong.

[David B]

What I'd like to know is "Can I get a REAL custom order"??

4 diggy headstock and logo placement???

Exactly! I'm in if they'll do it.

[veatch]

I'm probably not adding much value to the discussion, here: I'm just providing a viewpoint from someone who has ordered a CO in the past, and would love to do so again...

Hamer custom orders are killer. Jim's bass, the night tiger Tally, it's good stuff. The "stacked binding Limba Artist" that Greg and i had made - it's the guitar i play most - it stays out, and it makes me smile every time i dig in and it just barks. It also makes me smile when i look down at the neck / fretboard / F-hole / whatever and i see that binding detail. Overall, it's literally a dream come true for me. I rarely buy new guitars, and being pretty much a cheap ol' bastage, this was a very significant purchase for me. I love it and am very thankful to have it.

But...

After getting the Limba Artist, there were four other ideas that Greg and i cooked up. (some pretty wicked sh*t, too. We get some interesting thoughts when we start going...) My hope was to do one CO a year. The first one we priced out was, um, let's say a bit high.

Jol's stated before that his market are pros and the "working professionals" that are looking for a more personalized instrument. Designer guitars. I would put myself squarely in the second camp, even though i don't make nearly the kind of money one would need to justify the cost of a custom order. But, i have enough guitars that i can sell to finance a custom order or three.

Or so i thought until i got the last price.

If the pricing on this quote is indicative of Hamer's pricing strategy as a custom order only shop, i will be very disappointed, as i would sadly be out of the game. I hope this all works out as just a dark period due to a lousy economy. But we'll have to wait and see, right?

And my condolences to the horse.

[JohnnyB]

Guild hasn't had a noted electric user/endorser since Jack Casady (who since moved on to Epiphone) and Muddy Waters (who isn't endorsing anything these days).

I have to respectfully disagree...Kim Thayil from Soundgarden using the S100 Polara back in the 90's was popular enough by himself to prompt Guild to reissue this guitar.

You mean I missed one from just 16 years ago?

Oh, and let's not forget Tommy Smothers and his D-55. But even he moved on to Martin.

I like Guild Guitars, but endorsements and high profile players were never their strong suit either.

[Scottcrud]

Kind of hard to do that when Hamer doesn't give out endorsements... Robin doesn't either. I guess some companies just don't want to get bigger.

Free guitars do not guarantee anything other than the company is out of a guitar. Paid endorsements can get expensive.

Tell that to Fender, Gibson, PRS, Ibanez, Schecter, ESP and Washburn...

[burningyen]

Yes, endorsements work, but what artist out there is going to inspire someone to go out and buy a Hamer, especially a $$$ custom order?

[marcus2]

Of the PRS endorsees mentioned, Johnny Hiland left PRS to join Ernie Ball Music Man very recently.

EBMM makes great guitars, and has done a much better job of staying in touch with their customers than Hamer has (IMHO).

I've loved my Hamers for over 15 years now. I keep a bunch that I cannot even play comfortably after an injury to my left hand simply because of sentimental value. EBMM guitars are comfortable for me to play so they are my guitar of choice these days.

Getting involved with that company shows me one that is far more in tune with folks that are players, but cannot anty up the cash that Hamer decided it could demand in the market a few years ago. Too bad, since one of the reasons I became a fan of Hamer in the mid 1990s was the bang for the buck factor Hamer offered. EBMM's quality is outstanding. Sure, as bolt-ons, they are a different game than set-necks, but they make outstanding guitars.

To my mind, when Hamer went the boutique route in pricing, they left many of their core buyers behind.

I could, of course, be very wrong.

I wish the best to all the guys building these fantastic guitars.

Marc

Paid endorsements can get expensive.

Disagree. Paid endorsements to people who the majority of the guitar buying public don't give a shit about get expensive. Endorsements to people with juice in the guitar buying market pay for themselves over and over and over again.

Steve Stevens, Uncle Dick, and Tom Dumont (sp?) do not in any way shape or form equal Dave Navarro, Johnny Hiland, and David Grissom (note that I didn't even use the big hitters from PRS) to the masses. Hamer fans, yes...but not the rest of the guitar playing world.

[unfun75]

What I'd like to know is "Can I get a REAL custom order"??

I think this is the question that most of us here at the HFC want an answer to.

[Iceman8.6]

Of the PRS endorsees mentioned, Johnny Hiland left PRS to join Ernie Ball Music Man very recently.

EBMM makes great guitars, and has done a much better job of staying in touch with their customers than Hamer has (IMHO).

I've loved my Hamers for over 15 years now. I keep a bunch that I cannot even play comfortably after an injury to my left hand simply because of sentimental value. EBMM guitars are comfortable for me to play so they are my guitar of choice these days.

Getting involved with that company shows me one that is far more in tune with folks that are players, but cannot anty up the cash that Hamer decided it could demand in the market a few years ago. Too bad, since one of the reasons I became a fan of Hamer in the mid 1990s was the bang for the buck factor Hamer offered. EBMM's quality is outstanding. Sure, as bolt-ons, they are a different game than set-necks, but they make outstanding guitars.

To my mind, when Hamer went the boutique route in pricing, they left many of their core buyers behind.

I could, of course, be very wrong.

I wish the best to all the guys building these fantastic guitars.

Marc

EBMM got the biggest name in the electric guitar world on board back in the early 90's..heres a pic of my EBMM EVH I bought November of 1991

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

I don't know how much endorsements influence me.

Even as a guitarist, I never really paid attention to what guitar they played.

I would note they played a Strat or LP or Jr or Superstrat style guitar and that's about it.

My view towards guitar was always trying to find a good quality guitar for cheap that had been overlooked by the masses as they all went for Fenders and Gibbys.

Hamers aren't as cheap as I might want, but they got it all over any other guitar I've seen in terms of quality.

I am to the point now where I never have a tremor of doubt that a Hamer that's on the way won't be in perfect working order. It may be beat up, but it always works perfectly. Maybe I've been lucky?

That confidence is worth more than any endorsement in the world.

But aside from that, I admit that it is cool when a guitarist you like plays the same guitar as yours, or one you like. So for the brief time I was toying with the idea of building a Fernandes collection (they make surprisingly good guitars for a cheap price, but the quality still isn't as good as Hamer and there are too damn many of them to ever be worth anything), I was also extremely disappointed to find out that although Brad Gillis endorses Fernandes, and may use 'em as a backup, the guitar you always see him with is a Fender Strat, not a Fernandes.

It's like finding out there is no Santa Claus, yanno?

So I've finally come to the opinion that endorsements mean shit if you endorse a guitar only because they pay you or give you a free guitar. Meaning: the endorsement isn't a testimony to the guitar's quality, it is a cold-blooded business deal.

An endorsement only has an effect on me if a guitarist I admire raves about the guitar's quality/sound. Or uses it for years/decades (like Steve Morse' EBMM guitar). Or a tone hound who doesn't rave about the guitar, but even just quietly chooses it over other guitars as the best tone-producing instrument. Like Tommy Shaw choosing Hamer guitars as better than Vintage Gibsons...but then going back to Gibson, flirting with Taylor a little bit, and then coming back to Hamer for the Tally. Whether he uses it exclusively or not, I don't know. But knowing for a fact he uses it onstage, instead of all the other guitars he might have chosen, matters to me.

I'm extremely pleased and excited about Jon Kammerer guitars...I think that might be the next direction I go in collecting. But if I ever become a famous enough musician that someone interviews me, I will be sure and mention how f'n awesome Hamers are, and how you can see me play 'em in videos, how they provided a key part on the tone I got, how they make playing easy, how they got mojo, last forever, etc. And I will make sure I make it clear I never got a dime or a free guitar to say so.

[chap]

I don't know how much endorsements influence me.

Even as a guitarist, I never really paid attention to what guitar they played.

I would note they played a Strat or LP or Jr or Superstrat style guitar and that's about it.

My view towards guitar was always trying to find a good quality guitar for cheap that had been overlooked by the masses as they all went for Fenders and Gibbys.

Hamers aren't as cheap as I might want, but they got it all over any other guitar I've seen in terms of quality.

I am to the point now where I never have a tremor of doubt that a Hamer that's on the way won't be in perfect working order. It may be beat up, but it always works perfectly. Maybe I've been lucky?

That confidence is worth more than any endorsement in the world.

But aside from that, I admit that it is cool when a guitarist you like plays the same guitar as yours, or one you like. So for the brief time I was toying with the idea of building a Fernandes collection (they make surprisingly good guitars for a cheap price, but the quality still isn't as good as Hamer and there are too damn many of them to ever be worth anything), I was also extremely disappointed to find out that although Brad Gillis endorses Fernandes, and may use 'em as a backup, the guitar you always see him with is a Fender Strat, not a Fernandes.

It's like finding out there is no Santa Claus, yanno?

So I've finally come to the opinion that endorsements mean shit if you endorse a guitar only because they pay you or give you a free guitar. Meaning: the endorsement isn't a testimony to the guitar's quality, it is a cold-blooded business deal.

An endorsement only has an effect on me if a guitarist I admire raves about the guitar's quality/sound. Or uses it for years/decades (like Steve Morse' EBMM guitar). Or a tone hound who doesn't rave about the guitar, but even just quietly chooses it over other guitars as the best tone-producing instrument. Like Tommy Shaw choosing Hamer guitars as better than Vintage Gibsons...but then going back to Gibson, flirting with Taylor a little bit, and then coming back to Hamer for the Tally. Whether he uses it exclusively or not, I don't know. But knowing for a fact he uses it onstage, instead of all the other guitars he might have chosen, matters to me.

I'm extremely pleased and excited about Jon Kammerer guitars...I think that might be the next direction I go in collecting. But if I ever become a famous enough musician that someone interviews me, I will be sure and mention how f'n awesome Hamers are, and how you can see me play 'em in videos, how they provided a key part on the tone I got, how they make playing easy, how they got mojo, last forever, etc. And I will make sure I make it clear I never got a dime or a free guitar to say so.

I'm with you bro.

It's a part of why I like Hamer, they're not into endorsements.

One quick note ... anyone in advertising here? I believe endorsements (like advertising) are more about brand recognition than it is directly influencing someone to buy.

[gorch]

It's all kaffee klatsch here. It doesn't matter whether Guild or Ovation or whatever guitars are built under the same roof where Hamer USA guitars are built. As long as it keeps the luthiers busy, it's fine to me.

They cut the bodies on a CNC machine. So, its all a matter of programming what type of guitar comes out of that machine. Actually, it's the same thing they do in the factories in Asia. There, they might even cut the necks CNC based. I'd would say in Asia there exist larger factories that make guitars for a ton of labels, all under the same roof.

As long as there are Hamer guitars built in Asia there will be the custom shop existing with the marketing icon Jol put to front. Still, there is nothing to worry about.

Guys, the show goes on.

[elduave]

What I'd like to know is "Can I get a REAL custom order"??

I think this is the question that most of us here at the HFC want an answer to.

Define "real".

[sw686blue]

I gotta ask, when is the next Hamer Open House?

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

I'm with you bro.

It's a part of why I like Hamer, they're not into endorsements.

One quick note ... anyone in advertising here? I believe endorsements (like advertising) are more about brand recognition than it is directly influencing someone to buy.

I'm not in advertising, but I do understand what you're getting at.

I didn't even realize Hamer existed 2 years ago. I had heard of them...vaguely...I had roughly equated them with Harmony as making a line of guitars from cheap/crappy entry-level up to a fairly decent value-priced semi-pro. Imagine my surprise to find this board and all the information I learned from here.

But I gotta tell you: it took more than a month of reading here, Harmony Central, and other internet searches to figure out the differences between "Hamer USA" "Hamer" "Hamer Slammer Series" "Slammer by Hamer" and "Slammer pickups".

From that perspective alone, Hamer has failed in marketing.

Part of that, though, is Jol sticking to the original idea.

They thought the guitars of the 70s were crap, down from the quality of 60s guitars and ***way*** down from the quality of vintage Gibsons and Fenders. They wanted to make new, modern guitars that sounded, looked, and felt as good or better than the old late 50s electric guitars.

They marketed them to professionals. Not to make a big name for themselves, but (I think) because they wanted the joy of making a great guitar and seeing great players play them.

In contrast, I think PRS wanted to increase the mass appeal of his guitars from the get-go.

Hamer did some different things in marketing over the years, but it seems like Jol wants to get back to that original goal: making guitars only for those who truly appreciate what they are and can do.

So the pricing may be for two reasons:

- ensure they can sustain salaries of the builders while still making a profit despite low volume

- clear out the "rif-raff" like me, who will probably never spend $5k on a guitar and probably wouldn't appreciate a Hamer at that price

I'm not saying that *is* Jol's view. Even if it is, I'm not saying I agree with that view.

But as far as speculation goes, I think it's worth considering as a possible motive...

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

What I'd like to know is "Can I get a REAL custom order"??

I think this is the question that most of us here at the HFC want an answer to.

Define "real".

In this case:

Real = you can get anything you want, within the limits of physics and common sense (i.e. Boomers)

Not Real = you can "customize" from a limited list of options that they are willing to do.

"Real" results in a unique guitar. "Not Real" results in a guitar that is only as unique as the other 100 guitars with the exact same options selected.

Is it really "custom" to get to select chrome hardware instead of black? By definition, yes. In effect, no.

Now, demanding to be able to have the knob moved 1/2" farther apart, and the input jack shifted 1" up, change the angle the neck leaves the body by 20 degrees, have 9 strings with a harp and built in wah pedal and the entire guitar made out of ebony with a solid-uranium fretboard...well, that goes beyond the limits of any custom shop, no matter how ambitious.

At least, that's the way I see it.

[Guest JackButler]

Remember too that the Hilland thing with PRS was.. Johnny asked for a better deal (more$) and Paul wasn't willing to give him more.. just keep him in place with what he had.. Johnny decided to go elsewhere..

Endorsees are aimed at hobbyist, kids/teens/new players.. just like at Christmas time.. a kid's "mommy mommy.. I want.. I want.. gimme.. gimme" is tied to mom and dad's check book/credit card/bank account. When was the last time that there was an endorsee for these guitars that was relevant?

Endorsee's don't necessarily always mean free guitars or company paychecks.. it could even mean reduced price gear.."artist pricing". Most companies don't pay endorsees and don't fork over free gear.. that is one of the biggest misunderstanding about the whole endorsement process.. usually unless there is a sig model; no money changes hands at all.

[guitarzandstuff]

What I'd like to know is "Can I get a REAL custom order"??

I think this is the question that most of us here at the HFC want an answer to.

Define "real".

I''ll define REAL custom in my eyes... (was previously told no)

Korina Standard

Faded Cherry

Brazilian board, dots w/wide 12th fret spacing

Vintage neck carve

4 digit style headstock w/old style logo placement

50's style Klusons

[GaryT]

For those who care and don't know, almost every piece that Willcutt orders is a custom piece. They are Hamer's largest dealer and buy a significant % of their output.

ArnieZ

Yea I've been blown away with my NP-BE from Willcutt and have been seriously thinking of grabing another NP with a Quilt-Top. Have to really look things over though. I don't want a Mahogany back. I'actually want the same guitar I have either with a layered Quilt or Flame {something to that effect}. My maple NP has been a constant companion and though I have never really been a fan of Birdseye. I am very glad I didn't pass on my baby. I surely would have missed out on a piece that has grown to be a all-time favorite of mine.

I'm not doing enough and have a collection I would need to cut if I ordered a Custom built Hamer. The difference in price from a Mint "used" model in existance and that of building a CS now is no-doubt significant.

I have mixed emotions about Hamer and really hate to see a fantastic guitar be reduced to Custom orders. But, as mentioned many, many times. There is a large amout of basically all type of Hamers which presently could be had at a very good used price and great condition or easily repairable. You may have to wait a few moments till a specific guitar of interest comes along. But there haven't been many we haven't witnessed come across this forum in the past 1/2 year or so?

Who knows, nothing is in stone right now. Should the economy change to a degree that manufacturing seriously increase's here in the USA, and import is taxed enough that the price here is competitive? [state of the Union Address last night] May very well see Hamer pick-up again?

[burningyen]

I believe endorsements (like advertising) are more about brand recognition than it is directly influencing someone to buy.

I'm not in advertising, but my gut tells me you're wrong.

[eightyfour]

Endorsements have to work both ways. In the 90's when I worked for Ritchey we payed good money to a Swiss cyclist named Thomas Frischnecht who was by far the most consistent racer of that decade (mtb'er). But he didn't just get stuff, he was a huge part of our r&d and prod developement. His role in design was as a great a contribution as any of us staffers.

I think the real successful guitar endorsements have had similar relationships; Nielson with Hamer, Vai with Ibanez etc. That's the fundamental purpose behind getting top pros to use your stuff, to utilise their feedback to improve your product and generate visibility and excitement for it.

[mathman]

I am not usually influenced by advertising to buy things. If fact I will sometimes not buy something based on the advertising. So in a way I am influenced but not the way the marketeer hopes.

I got into Hamers back in the early 80's after watching Cheap Trick. I don't remember seeing ads but I do remember seeing Tom and Rick play their guitars and loving the sound. Tom is why I bought my Hamer Cruise bass in 1984.

[specialk]

Speaking of advertising.

Hamer used to have a 1/4 page or 1/2 page ad in Premier Guitar. I haven't seen one in there for months. I guess their ad budget has been cut way back.