ZZ Top producer/engineer Terry Manning

[Brooks]

I don't remember if we discussed this here before, but I just dug this up because we were talking ZZ on therushforum.com.........

taken from:

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php...sg/3849/0/16/0/

The full story of the making of Eliminator (the politics, the chicannery, the technical aberrations, the high social drama, the exodus, the payback) is one that I cannot tell. Even if I could, there certainly wouldn't be room for it here! It probably won't even make it into "the book" (or the movie). Just don't forget that truth is often stranger than fiction!

However, I will address certain specific musical or technical issues, and I'll begin with your guitar amp question.

THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO ROCKMAN USED ON THIS RECORDING!

Not a little bit, not a tiny bit; NOT ANY. I don't know how these stories get started. Billy may indeed have used Rockman at a later date, after I left the situation, but I did not allow it when I was working with him. He did bring one in to try, but I was not satisfied with the sound, compared to an amplifier.

The amp used, almost exclusively, on Eliminator was a Legend. This was about a 50 watt hybrid unit, employing a tube/valve preamp, and a transistor power amp. This is the amp which has a finished wood case, and a rattan-type cane grill. It has one 12" Celestion speaker. Legend were later bought by, or at least distributed by, Gibson, but they were independent when we started using them. I still have this amp; it is almost new. A couple of years ago I plugged one of the Eliminator guitars into it, just to see...there was the sound!

The guitars were custom built by Dean. Dean were out of Chicago, and were trying to break into the high end (a la Jackson, PRS) market. They were very nice, albeit different, instruments. Subsequently however, they got a contract with Sears to make guitars, so they opted for the big bucks, Korean manufactured, low end market instead. But the ones we used were very nicely made. There were two which we employed. One was somewhat like a cross between a Flying-V and a Moderne shape, very long "ears," and the other was a sort of a warped, pointy Stratocaster-y shape. Both guitars had a single DiMarzio Super Distortion high output pickup, and almost no controls. I don't think there is even a tone control...what would you need one for? They have big, heavy, brass bridge/tail pieces bolted into the body. These guitars were very live, very resonant, and would verge on resonant feedback at all times; they were also very hard to keep in tune because of this. But they were always alive. Billy has the first one mentioned, and he gave me the latter, which I still have.

The guitar was recorded with basically only one setup; one amp (Legend), one speaker (12"), one guitar (Deans, the two were almost exactly the same), one mic (AKG 414B-ULS, I still have it) in one position (about 5" from the cone, placed at a slight angle off axis), one mic pre (the SpectraSonics console). 98% of ALL guitar on this album, whether lead or rhythm was done this way. Any variations were from the player himself, who, remember, did not even have a tone control. That's how good Billy was back then. We did use very briefly a small amp by Ross, but we didn't like it much, and I think only a tiny part or two was kept from this, if any.

The rhythm guitars were done in a precursor-to-Protools style. Short phrases were played, and then double tracked, onto one set of tracks, and then the chord change/next phrase was played on a second set of tracks. This allowed a seamless transition between changes; since the Deans were so close to feedback at all times (acoustically, through the fairly loud JBL monitors), we couldn't even lift the fingers to change chords! Then I would trim the edges of each section by punching in and out to silence at the beginnings and ends of the phrases (somewhat analogous to "trimming the region" today). This method also "eliminated" to a degree the loud harmonic squeaks between chord changes. The punch in/out points, if done exactly perfectly, made for a primitive cross fade of probably 10-20 ms, and ended up sounding very different as rhythm guitar, sort of like a big train rolling down a track, almost out of control; without knowing how it was done, one wouldn't really realise why it was different.

For the leads, as always, there was a lot of punching done.

The bass was mostly played either by Billy or by me, and was either a bass instrument, or a Moog Source (the Source was a Mini Moog [rhymes with 'Vouge'] analogue synth with digitally controlled parameters...I still have this, too). Synth chords were played on a Memory Moog (polyphonic Mini).

Billy sang great, different vocals, as usual, and the harmonies were done either by Jimmy Jamison or by me.

There are a MILLION more things which could be told about this distinctive album, but as mentioned, most of it is probably better left unsaid. But one interesting thing, at least to me, was the recording of "Legs." We had tried it a couple of ways unsuccessfully at Ardent, so I decided to try a new approach. I had a 24 track studio in my attic at home, so I took Billy's lead guitar and vocal home on a 1/2" two track L/R ("samples"). I recut the entire track myself, and then hand flew in Billy's parts onto the track. This meant careful timing of the play button on my MCI 1/2", for each and every phrase, as after a few seconds, they would drift out of sync. I mixed it there through my Soundcraft 1200 console (these were also the mic pre's) onto the MCI 1/2". The multitrack was also the Soundcraft 2" machine, which I really loved. Then I did a totally different version, which became the long "dance mix" later released to clubs, and it is now included in the new box set. Later, I saw a review of this dance version credited, to Jellybean Benitez ...go figure!

Well, I guess it can now be told, as long as you promise not to pass it on, but yes, I played the drums on "Legs," and in fact, almost the whole album. As mentioned, this song was recorded in my attic, except for Billy's lead guitar and vocal, which came from a previous studio version which was unsatisfactory. (Oh, if I could tell the whole, real story! Maybe someday...)

The drums were a combination of things. There was programming, on my Oberheim drum machine, and then a multitude of samples triggered in over the snare as well, using an AMS DMX, and very carefully manually trimming the input volume to catch every beat properly. The hat was a sound from the Oberheim mixed with some sampled things and some white noise, then gated and triggered from an arpeggiated spike. Then I one-at-a-time overdubbed certain other drums, some toms, and definitely cymbals. On some of the tracks of the album, I added to the tom sounds with a Simmons electronic kit, just barely mixed under the real ones, for tom 'fatness.' For the rest of the music track, a lot of it was programmed (step programming!) in my MemoryMoog. There was just barely enough memory in it to get a few things, then I'd have to re-program and punch in. I remember on one arpeg-16th sound, there was enough memory to do the whole song, but not to add any chord changes. So I would use a cassette case to hold down the tonic key (wedged in place using the F# black key as a 'holder') and then make the temperament changes with the detuning wheel. Not very easy, with the high technology available back then, but it forced you to be creative! I had to set the amount of detune for one change, then record the two passages, then re-set it for another change, start from the beginning every time, and punch in on the right spot. It took forever! The bass I played manually on a bass instrument, then doubled it in the manner mentioned above with the Moog. The rhythm guitar I played normally with a guitar, run into a Marshall head, then into my Harbinger speaker-booth-box (Ronny Montrose design out of SF). The pads and angel voices came from a Yamaha DX-9...I didn't want to spring for the whole cost of a '7'! The background vocals were done by me and Jimmy Jamison (who is now lead singer for Survivor, and can be seen on a new ad on TV, I think for Gateway or something like that). Jimmy did a lot of great BV's for me over the years. He can sound like whomever you put him with!

I mixed "Legs" from my Soundcraft 2" 24 track, through my Soundcraft 1200 console, onto my MCI 1/2" two track...I still have and use that 2 track today. Works like a hay baler, but actually records well...it's the tranformerless electronics version. The Soundcraft stuff I sold to Sun Studios, who put it into the famous old building. U2 recorded "Angel of Harlem" on it!

As for the drum fill, I would hate to take any credit as an inventor of a fill! Billy and I worked out most of the fills together...we were very into what type of fills would work in what places. We were expecially fond of the one you mention, and also were trying to find places where a fill could extend into the first couple of beats of the next bar, after a normal fill would have ended. I don't remember if we actually executed this or not...I'll have to listen to the whole Eliminator album now, just to see!

Anyway, that's some of the story. Thanks for your interest!

Regards,

Terry

(jimmyjazz wrote on Mon, 07 March 2005 10:54 )

Q: Terry, this may get into the part of the story you can't tell, but I always wondered why Frank Beard seemed curiously absent on ZZ Top records as they started going ga-multi-platinum. It was blindingly obvious, even to the barely-ZZ-Top-fans such as I, that the drums were pretty much electronic. What happened? I never felt the drums on earlier releases were anything but good, so it doesn't seem to me to be an issue of talent. Was "Eliminator" really just a Billy Gibbons vanity record?

A: Definitely not a vanity record. It was an attempt to reach ga-multi-platinum status.

However, this is indeed part of the story about which I should not speak.

[DavidE]

I've tried a bunch of Legend amps. I even remember one that had a Shure SM57 built in on a mic clip. I never thought they sounded that good. Must have been me!

[RacerX]

Interesting,

I had a Legend 1x12 combo and a head (both the Rock&Roll 50 model) years ago. Ran the head through a Orange 4x12. I liked them but got guff from my buddies because I didn't use Marshalls. They looked sort of boogie-ish with the cane grill and natural wood cabs (oak) and sounded Marshall-y. I remember always having the "boost" switched in since the amp thined out too much for me without it. My 1x12 combo was in NOS shape with the original cover, manual, schmatic, even the foot switch was still in the plastic baggy...and it took me a YEAR to sell it!!! NO legend love back then

Mark.

[GaryT]

I have to go back and listen to Legs quick and check the Harmonics between chord changes. I hear that in Billy Gs playing often though.

The Rev is a Bad Mother F......er.

[BubbaVO]

Geez...I am such a dork. I complain about having to cut and paste on Garageband. This guy is doing it on real tape. Doh!!!

[Scottcrud]

Wasn't Frank Beard all sorts of Coked out during this time? That's what I heard from someone close to Billy Gibbons.

[GaryT]

Couldn't make it.......Evil Stuff man

[atquinn]

So the recording of Eliminator was a f*&$@cking travesty like most of the stuff recorded during that time period. Obvious, but still sad.

-

Austin

[DavidE]

And now they use two Apple laptops to play along with....

[elduave]

I've always been a bit of a ZZ hater, even leaving during their first song when Sammy Hagar opened. In the last couple of years, I've become curious about old ZZ, having heard a deep track every now and then through the years. Well, I bought the Double Down DVD recently, and I gotta say, that 1980 show KICKS MY ASS! I "get" them now. That Just Got Paid, Manic Mechanic shit is the fucking bomb.

ZZ Top, do you forgive me?

[tbonesullivan]

I LOVE the original version of Legs. The re-master that is put on all of the Greatest hits cd, and even the current release of Eliminator, sucks compared to it. I have the original LP release, and it's incredible.

[Disturber]

I've always been a bit of a ZZ hater, even leaving during their first song when Sammy Hagar opened. In the last couple of years, I've become curious about old ZZ, having heard a deep track every now and then through the years. Well, I bought the Double Down DVD recently, and I gotta say, that 1980 show KICKS MY ASS! I "get" them now. That Just Got Paid, Manic Mechanic shit is the fucking bomb.

ZZ Top, do you forgive me?

I discovered ZZ-top when I was 14. We were out in this cabin house, the guys in the band I was in back then, and had some bottles of alcohol with us that we had stole from our parents. That Eliminator album played on the cassette boom box all night, I got extremely drunk and threw up in the morning. It was a totally weird experience.

Then I liked the Eleminator album for about a year so. When the follow up came I started to hate that sound. I did not really listen to ZZ top again properly until about three years ago. Now I have picked up all their albums up until Eleminator on vinyl. I also got that Double Down DVD for x-mas. It's pretty great!

Edit; Billy must have used a Legend Super Lead 50W 1x12 amp then.

[GaryT]

Double Down is the Bomb. Its early and it shows the pointy guitars. The Rev isn't singing in the Deep voice that came later and they really were in the early stages of working together on stage. Dress and what not came as they Evolved.

Eliminatior was ....well, you'll hear it with different ears now.

[moozak]

i bought Fandango on a whim back around 75 (or so?)... i was absolutely floored when i heard it... still am when i listen to it. in fact, to this day, nothing gets me going like listening to Thunderbird.

if you "started" with Eliminator... do yourself a big favor and work your way back to Fandango and Tres Hombres and even their First Album... you'll be amazed... not only by the great music and their amazing tones - but in their transformation over the years.

[GaryT]

Yup thats pretty much it. I prefer to see an Artist early on. Its the Rawest versions of them and its really what interests me, and turns me on.

The polished acts further on down the road? Their great too, and you see a much more relaxed performer, much more on top of their game, and much more of a "show" so to speak. Thats great for the paying audience who are simply out for an evening to catch a show from a peformer at the top of their game.

I always preferd to see the early days. The Struggle, the Sweat, the slightly Weary performer. That inspires me.

[velorush]

if you "started" with Eliminator... do yourself a big favor and work your way back to Fandango and Tres Hombres and even their First Album... you'll be amazed... not only by the great music and their amazing tones - but in their transformation over the years.

I highly recommend the back catalog, but be aware that most of the early stuff got "improved" when it went to CD - bunch of electronic junk added to "enhance" the music (trying to make them sound like Eliminator). They are slowly releasing remastered CDs that don't have added electronic enhancements. So far I am aware of Tres Hombres and Fandango having been remastered back to original spec. I'm pretty sure Deguello never got messed with.

[hamersandstrats]

Double Down is the Bomb. Its early and it shows the pointy guitars. The Rev isn't singing in the Deep voice that came later and they really were in the early stages of working together on stage. Dress and what not came as they Evolved.

Eliminatior was ....well, you'll hear it with different ears now.

ZZ started in 1969, so they had quite a bit of stage experience by then. Billy Gibbons was one of Hendrix's favorite guitarists.

Tres Hombres is my favorite album of theirs by far bith songwise and guitar tone wise.

[ecnal]

I'd love to hear more of the back stories the producer hints at.

[tommy p]

I'm one who started with Eliminator, although I knew their previous hits. I think the next thing I bought was the ZZ Top 6-pack. Having never heard the original full albums, I didn't know if they were different. Having heard them since I think the biggest thing you'd notice is that all the drum tracks were beefed up considerably on the 6-pack versions.

Oh, and then I bought Deguello which became my favorite ZZ album.

[Hamerica]

I've always been a bit of a ZZ hater, even leaving during their first song when Sammy Hagar opened. In the last couple of years, I've become curious about old ZZ, having heard a deep track every now and then through the years. Well, I bought the Double Down DVD recently, and I gotta say, that 1980 show KICKS MY ASS! I "get" them now. That Just Got Paid, Manic Mechanic shit is the fucking bomb.

ZZ Top, do you forgive me?

I discovered ZZ-top when I was 14. We were out in this cabin house, the guys in the band I was in back then, and had some bottles of alcohol with us that we had stole from our parents. That Eliminator album played on the cassette boom box all night, I got extremely drunk and threw up in the morning. It was a totally weird experience.

Then I liked the Eleminator album for about a year so. When the follow up came I started to hate that sound. I did not really listen to ZZ top again properly until about three years ago. Now I have picked up all their albums up until Eleminator on vinyl. I also got that Double Down DVD for x-mas. It's pretty great!

Edit; Billy must have used a Legend Super Lead 50W 1x12 amp then.

I had heard of ZZ Top before I knew who they were. When the first album came out, one of the local Dallas radio stations were cranking up "Neighbor, Neighbor" after midnight. I miss the ZOO!

When I was 15, one of the guys I had hanged out with from High School played "Fandango" (can't remember if it was an 8 track or a cassette) non stop but I didn't make the connection.

After the World-Wide Texas tour they exploded, died down a little and then came out Eliminator followed up Duplicator and the like.

Almost 20 years later I meet Buddy Whittington who on his local sets, would play several ZZ Top songs cover songs. Not just the top 40 stuff but "Brown Sugar", Neighbor Neighbor, and a personal fave "Balinese". Thats when it all came back for me.

Nightwolf was not a fan of ZZ Top. When I found out his reference was thatgodaweful 6 Pack that I threw out of my collection, (I did not give it to anyone, it was that bad), I knew why. I begged him to go back and listen to the first four albums. I don't think he ever did.

ZZ had and had not left the trusty blues and classic rock sound that founded them. Later ZZ Top CD's have that over-processed sound to attract the pop audience as explained for Eliminator but Antenna and Mescalero are fine CD's. Chrome, Smoke and BBQ and Rancho Texicano are great collections of their work.

The five bands I have seen the most live are Cheap Trick, Pat Benatar & the highly underated Neil Giralado, Buddy Whittington, Andy Timmons (thank god I live in Tejas), and ZZ Top.

Dave, I am sure they will forgive you. It took me over 20 years to rediscover them, thanks to Brian McCombs and Buddy Whittington.

Hamerica

[Brooks]

the zz top six pack was their earlier stuff remixed w/ horibble gated reverbs etc, basically the record company trying to make the blues rawk zz top sound like the eliminator dance rawk zz top. look for their 1st greatest hits (w/ the cowboys on the cover), or the recent box set "chrome smoke & bbq", which is fantastic. tres hombres/fandango/tejas are my fave zz albums, followed by deguello/rio grand mud/zz tops 1st album. i don't care for el loco or the rest of the newer stuff (although they do have a couple of decent newer tunes in the last 15 years).

something else i love about zz top is frank beards drumming;

listen to the tejas album; on almost every tune he's playing a paradiddle pattern w/ his right and left hand (RL RL RR LR LR LL)

but not like a typical snare drum rudiment; he does it on the snare and ride cymbal, which is incredibly funky and groovin'!

he does it on other tunes from other albums, but its ALL OVER the tejas album. i fookin' LOVE that!!!

[Brooks]

I had heard of ZZ Top before I knew who they were. When the first album came out, one of the local Dallas radio stations were cranking up "Neighbor, Neighbor" after midnight. I miss the ZOO!

The five bands I have seen the most live are Cheap Trick, Pat Benatar & the highly underated Neil Giralado, Buddy Whittington, Andy Timmons (thank god I live in Tejas), and ZZ Top.

i grew up on KZEW, too! i liked zz top ok (i had fandango & tres hombres on vinyl), but i was really into heavier stuff. it wasn't untill after college (when i wasn't so METAL) that i went back and really dug into tejas and all the early stuff and realized how truly great they were.

ps- got to see timmons play a bunch locally in college, amazing. one of my best friends steve (hfc's bruiser brody) took lessons from andy.

[Frank]

We have a WZEW here that calls itself the "ZEW". It used to be a really good station. Used to be...

[SteveB]

but Antenna and Mescalero are fine CD's.

Antenna is an awesome disk, probably my second favorite behind Deguello.

gimee some of that PCH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLcKWcxw5KA

Its definately "modern" ZZTOP but I like the type of balance they mostly came to on their material Antenna and after.

[GaryT]

I didn't know Buddy Whittington got out his own now. Have to check him out.

Caught him a couple times with the BluesBreakers in the late 90s early 2000, I believe it was. Blues for Lost Days but I can't remember the earlier CD with Mayall. Had Spinning Coin on it, that was the first time I had seen Buddy though. He carried a Vintage Strat and Les-Paul with him and was bouncing back and forth. Nice Player, Mayall was having him do his own 15min set then where he led the band and sang.