G Man Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Is it just me, or does is bother anyone else that FMIC is releasing so many hamer models that were once only USA made in the XT line? I noticed when browsing ebay that there is now XT versions of the Monaco, with full neck inlays , Standards, and even Juniors. Its like they are doing whatever they can to trash the Hamer name and confusing the consumer so that if Hamer USA ever does want to make a comeback there will be a lot of confusion in the marketplace.
Steve Haynie Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 When Kaman started selling the Slammer Series guitars based on existing USA models the end of Hamer as a USA only line happened then. What Fender does now is not a significant an event. Mid-level instruments made in Asia are normal for almost every major brand, so those imports are going to keep the Hamer name out there. The only instruments tied to Hamer that should never have happened were the Slammer By Hamer series. They were the cheapest imports Kaman could find. Hopefully they have all disintegrated by now because they certainly would guarantee someone to stay away from the Hamer brand after owning one of those horrible pieces of crap.
Uncle Thor's Hamer Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 That's the story of Ovation acoustics. There used to be a clear line between USA and import. USA had the Ovation name on the headstock, the imports said Celebrity or Applause on the headstock. The names and model numbers were unique. The colors and appearances were kept different, so that you wouldn't have trouble differentiating USA vs import. Applause was entry level, Celeb was mid level, and Ovation was their pro level. All were excellent instruments for the price point, and provided the buyer with a clear upward path for their next guitar.Then they started putting the Ovation logo on the import Celebs. Then they moved all standard production overseas (you can still custom order a USA made O if you like) and made a slight mod to the model numbers, going from a suffix of LX or T to AX or TX. In the switch to almost total foreign manufacture they made some significant changes to save further costs, arguably making the guitars lower quality. For example, the neck is now non-resettable.The average buyer will only see a lower price tag, not knowing the corners which have been cut. It really appears to me that FMIC is trying to fool the buyer into confusing the cheaper foreign guitars with the higher quality USA models Ovation used to build. For the price, the foreign guitars are an outstanding value. But the brand identity has been merged with the lower level import product and it will quickly become known as the lower quality foreign brand. A sad thing for USA production and for musicians who remember the great quality that Ovation was known for.
JGale Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Gentlemen. It is, after all, all about the Benjamins. Your concerns over brand dilution are
JohnnyB Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Has Fender destroyed their own name with the MIM "Standard" series?Has Gretsch been destroyed with the "Electromatic" series?Has G&L been destroyed with the "Tribute" series?Has Lakland (boutique basses) been destroyed with the "Skyline" series?Has Ken Smith (boutique basses) been destroyed with the "Burner" series?Has Warwick been destroyed with the "Rockbass" series?Has Dingwall (boutique fanfret basses) been destroyed with the "Combustion" series?Has MTD (Michael Tobias Design) been destroyed with the "Kingston" series?Has Music Man been destroyed by the "Sterling" series?Has Spector basses been destroyed by the "Legend" and "Performer" series?Sounds like an industry-wide business model to me.
Steve Haynie Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 There is something lost when a manufacturer farms out a name, at least for those people who like touting the brand. PRS was a hold-out much longer than Hamer, but even that company had to make a decision on how to support itself.
dhuber Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 A sad thing for USA production and for musicians who remember the great quality that Ovation was known for.My wife has a 1987 collectors and I have a USA Legend. Both are wonderful guitars. I've never played any Ovation Celebrity that I liked. I've never played an Asian Hamer so I can't comment on that.
G Man Posted October 19, 2011 Author Posted October 19, 2011 Has Fender destroyed their own name with the MIM "Standard" series?Has Gretsch been destroyed with the "Electromatic" series?Has G&L been destroyed with the "Tribute" series?Has Lakland (boutique basses) been destroyed with the "Skyline" series?Has Ken Smith (boutique basses) been destroyed with the "Burner" series?Has Warwick been destroyed with the "Rockbass" series?Has Dingwall (boutique fanfret basses) been destroyed with the "Combustion" series?Has MTD (Michael Tobias Design) been destroyed with the "Kingston" series?Has Music Man been destroyed by the "Sterling" series?Has Spector basses been destroyed by the "Legend" and "Performer" series?Sounds like an industry-wide business model to me.The main difference in your examples and Hamer are that all of the brands you listed still maintain a US production line, (not custom only). I guess it is just me then. But something seems amiss when I can buy pretty much any flavor Hamer as an import, including guitars with "elite" appointments, but if I want a new USA Hamer, it has to be custom shop only. Ah well, at least there are still plenty of nice used US Hamers out there.
MCChris Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Confusing the marketplace is kinda Hamer's schtick, isn't it?
Mindseyes Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I dont think its a big deal...all the other brands do it.I thought when PRS started putting birds on their imports the fanboi's would cry but for the most part they have embraced it.....
Steve Haynie Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Hamer has always been a custom shop. They have made a bunch of guitars with basic features, or stock models. They still make the same guitars. Those guitars are just made when they are ordered.
zenmindbeginner Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Okay, this is going to be harsh:I'm waiting on a Hamer "American Special" sort of series... oh wait, that was the 80's and 90'sThe past was beautiful and the future is for shit. Reality sucks.Hamer lost their minds with their foray into the boutique niche market. They abandoned the middle class and told us to buy an Asian import or to fuck off. Reality sucks.Guitars for the jet set.And the rest of us can just fugging eat cake.You absolutely can make sub $1000 guitars in the US... the profit margin will be tight but it can be done.$4000+ custom orders? What are they doing? Rubbing platinum powder into the wood? Stop spending a week on the binding and you might actually make some money. The little details are fucking meaningless...Pure naval gazing (which was Jol's special talent).I don't give a hoot what Hamer does with their brand, they have proven time and time again that they don't really give a shit about being a serious guitar manufacturer.Get a production flow that balances quality and cost with speed and efficiency. Get a finishing schedule that makes great but cheap finishes. But they're now owned by FMIC which only wants Hamer to do well without infringing upon the success of their other brands. They bought the name to cage it and make it go bye bye.And Gibson didn't even have to lift a finger.The guitar industry has never wanted Hamer doing business and getting ahead. Maybe the mistake went as far back as Kaman's money and influence? Ovation suffered from a similar fate tied to confusion about import lines and poor distribution. The mistakes started when they would allow a small pawn shop or music store to carry the Slammer and Celebrity lines only, eschewing the American lines. Many people were exposed only to their Asian offerings and their good names started to go down the tubes because the general public started to equate Hamer and Ovation with import junk.If a teenager is going to buy an import why not go for an Ibanez, LTD or Schecter? At least your schoolmates won't laugh at you when you pull out your "Hammer Slammer" guitarI'm just tired of people either not knowing what a Hamer is or dismissing them as being inferior to PRS, Ibanez and ESP. The Hamer name has little to no value, it's long been dead.I wouldn't say that the HFC is beating a dead horse, but we are mos def vigorously patting it on the head.
humfree Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I have a couple of friends who send me Craig's links to Hamers all the time asking if 'this is a good deal?" Prices are usually in the $300-$400 range and every single time they are imports. I don't know how many times I have told them that it has to say USA, but they just can't get their minds around the phenomenon (for some reason). I have also met other guitarists that have formerly owned Hamers that do not have good things to say about them. When I ask whether or not they were made the in USA, they don't know. It's a double edged sword I guess.. you get the name out into the public, but it isn't all that representative of the true soul of the company. Then again, if someone wanted to tell me that there have been more import models made than American, I couldn't disagree because I have seen a ton of imports - whereas I see an American Hamer hanging in a music store MAYBE once a year (if I'm lucky). I was surprised when a friend told me that First Act made some really cool high end USA guitars: http://www.firstact.com/Products/LimitedEditionGuitars.aspx
tommy p Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 FMIC should be using Specials and Standards to eat Gibson's lunch, but they're not. Why is that?
carfish7 Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 The past was beautiful and the future is for shit. Reality sucks. This. Get over it and enjoy the great deals on used USA stuff while they are still cheap. What we see here is a perfect microcosm of the ills we are facing globally. Profit above all else. I hear some folks are pissed off enough about it to take to the streets, but I won't veer this into forbidden territory....
Lockbody Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 FMIC should be using Specials and Standards to eat Gibson's lunch, but they're not. Why is that?That would probably be the end of the gentleman's agreement between Hamer and Gibson that allows Hamer to build upscale copies of of Gibson's patented designs.
atquinn Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Haynie's got it right IMO. I thought it completely sucked when boomers and Ultimate purfling started showing up on import Hamers and that was in the Kaman days. I also don't like the victory inlays on the XT's now, but it's not like Fender is doing anything different than Kaman. And ultimately, it doesn't really affect me anyway. There are still way more USA Hamers out there than I have money to buy.-Austin
Quietly Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Unfortunately I do not think Hamer in Europe has a name at all. Just a look on EBay UK http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40...-All-Categories confirms that. Dealers who had Hamer USA in stock and clearly had problems moving them have now almost all switched to XT or dropped them all together. I have been waiting for ages to find a Newport for sale on the Bay and managed to snap one yesterday. The good news is that the fact they have no name (In the commercial sense) means that when they do appear they go for low prices and that in a way is also a killer as buying a new one means heavy losses on resale.
JohnnyB Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Has Fender destroyed their own name with the MIM "Standard" series?Has Gretsch been destroyed with the "Electromatic" series?Has G&L been destroyed with the "Tribute" series?Has Lakland (boutique basses) been destroyed with the "Skyline" series?Has Ken Smith (boutique basses) been destroyed with the "Burner" series?Has Warwick been destroyed with the "Rockbass" series?Has Dingwall (boutique fanfret basses) been destroyed with the "Combustion" series?Has MTD (Michael Tobias Design) been destroyed with the "Kingston" series?Has Music Man been destroyed by the "Sterling" series?Has Spector basses been destroyed by the "Legend" and "Performer" series?Sounds like an industry-wide business model to me.The main difference in your examples and Hamer are that all of the brands you listed still maintain a US production line, (not custom only). As far as the public is concerned, Hamer still maintains a US production line. After all, they have a website and a catalog that both list standard USA models. There have been many examples through the years of acquisitions and mishandling of name brands. Look at how Gibson acquired and then ruined names like Tobias, Steinberger, and Slingerland. That was most likely through mishandling, not bad intent. I think FMIC is different. They wrote the book on successful branding. Consider Gretsch and the Electromatic series, both successful now. Buy an Electromatic; get the jones for a Pro model at 3x the price. FMIC may be doing Hamer a favor with the XT branding and marketing. Just because Hamer USA is now a by-order company doesn't mean Fender wouldn't like them to increase production if the market would support it. Look at all they've gone through to restore market viability to Gretsch and Guild.
cynic Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 The past was beautiful and the future is for shit. Reality sucks.That's not really harsh, it's just about the most accurate thing stated on the subject during any of our monthly rehashes.More power to those that can afford the custom orders these days, and I'm happy that you're finally able to get what you want from Hamer. In my mind though, as a brand, Hamer USA is already gone. The overall sense I get from the CO's mentioned here is they're only making guitars today because the phone is ringing with requests from those wanting the guitars no longer being rejected. The novelty of that will wear off pretty quick.As for the imports having "USA" inlays and whatever, I bet the kids buying them think it's pretty damn cool to have the same fancy inlays as the guy they saw on tv. That's probably more important to everyone involved than infringing on someones warped sense of exclusivity. Funny, everyone has really good things to say about the the majority of the Hamer imports until they start borrowing from any success the US shop had, then we get all pissy about it.
gregc Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Hey, just maybe FMIC can help them hang in until this piss poor economy improves for everyone. Then, we'll see what happens....
JohnnyB Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 Okay, this is going to be harsh:I'm waiting on a Hamer "American Special" sort of series... oh wait, that was the 80's and 90'sThe past was beautiful and the future is for shit. Reality sucks.Hamer lost their minds with their foray into the boutique niche market. They abandoned the middle class and told us to buy an Asian import or to fuck off. Reality sucks.Guitars for the jet set.And the rest of us can just fugging eat cake. ...$4000+ custom orders? What are they doing? Rubbing platinum powder into the wood? Stop spending a week on the binding and you might actually make some money. The little details are fucking meaningless...Pure naval gazing (which was Jol's special talent).Hamer pretty much created the solid body boutique electric guitar market. They were originally guitar makers to the stars. Clients included Sting, Andy Summers, Elliott Easton, Jethro Tull, Cheap Trick, and many others. Only after establishing this clientele did they even offer instruments to the general public, and these were pricey, specialized, and boutique quality. To quote this account of the early days:Hamer's first catalog, dated Fall, 1975, showed only Explorer-shaped instruments. With no model name, they were referred to only as "the Hamer guitar," and their handmade construction using the finest materials was stressed. This first production guitar, later named the Standard model, had a suggested list price of $799, without case. They had one-piece bodies of select British Honduras mahogany, available with or without a bookmatched, curly maple top. The one-piece, set-and-glued necks were "carved from the same choice mahogany," with a six-in-line "hockey-stick" headstock. The Inbound rosewood fingerboards had 22 frets, with pearl dot inlays, and were available in a variety of shapes and sizes. Scale length was 24 3/4". Grover Deluxe tuning machines were used, as was a tune-o-matic style bridge with stop tailpiece.$799 (the entry level price without options) adjusted for inflation comes to over $3205 today. Hamer only offered "affordable" US-made guitars in the '80s and '90s when guitar demand peaked in the heavy metal period and economy of scale made aggressive pricing possible. As the US approached the 21st century, guitar demand dropped in favor of DJ equipment and the US guitar industry en masse looked to the Far East to provide affordable instruments. They had to be able to compete with Ibanez, Samick, and Yamaha or die.
Hfan Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I have also met other guitarists that have formerly owned Hamers that do not have good things to say about them. When I ask whether or not they were made the in USA, they don't know. http://www.firstact.com/Products/LimitedEditionGuitars.aspx Pretty amazing that someone could own a guitar and be cluless regarding the country of origin. Maybe I am just a little anal.
crunchee Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 As for the imports having "USA" inlays and whatever, I bet the kids buying them think it's pretty damn cool to have the same fancy inlays as the guy they saw on tv.The only 'guys' I see playing Hamer on TV anymore is Rick Nielsen and occasionally Felicia Collins (Late Show with David Letterman). Somebody's gonna bring up Tom Dumont or some other player known for playing Hamers in the past (emphasis on the PAST), but I'm talking about players who get semi-regular, CURRENT face time on general consumption/basic cable TV within the last year, and I haven't seen or heard of Dumont or anybody else on the Hamer USA roster for a long time. For the most part, any new band on TV anymore seems to have very 'safe', conservative tastes in instruments--Fenders, Gibsons, Gretsch, and PRS. The result of endorsement deals? Probably, IMO. You might as well be seeing/listening to the current Free Credit Score.com band (Gibson/Epiphone endorsees, BTW) if you're taking note of gear.Has Hamer turned into FMIC's version of Epiphone? With all the imports they're pushing out on the public, I'm thinking so. If I remember correctly, the upshot of FMIC buying KMC was mainly for the distribution network, for instance, the distribution rights for Gretsch drums...now, you've got the Gretsch name back under a single company's control. Just a f'rinstance, but worth mentioning. FMIC's purchase of KMC wasn't Hamer-centric, it covered a LOT of music merch and manufacturing ground.Just my two cents.
atquinn Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 I have also met other guitarists that have formerly owned Hamers that do not have good things to say about them. When I ask whether or not they were made the in USA, they don't know. http://www.firstact.com/Products/LimitedEditionGuitars.aspx Pretty amazing that someone could own a guitar and be cluless regarding the country of origin. Maybe I am just a little anal.I think the majority of people who buy guitars are like me when I'm buying anything other than a guitar; they care about price-point and pay absolutely no attention to country of origin. There's undoubtedly a skewed viewpoint here because of the nature of the board.-Austin
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