Gibson USA vs Hamer USA - some thoughts

[Morris Davis]

Wanted to start a discussion about genuine differences between the guitars. Here are my observations. Feel free to correct or add... Note that I'm comparing Gibson USA Les Pauls (reg and custom shop) to Hamer studios and Monacos.

1. Gibsons have greater variance in terms of weight and tone. The variance in weight on Gibbys is 2 pounds, from solid historics at 8.5 pounds to weight-relieved studios at 10.5. I've played "dark" and "bright" Les Pauls, and I don't think it was related to weight. I know Hamers can vary in tone and weight as well, but my limited experience suggests the variation is more extreme with Gibson.

2. The Gibson bridge humbucker is about 1/4 inch closer to the bridge than a Hamer. Im measuring at the high E string. This leads to more attack and reduced mids in the bridge position. I don't know if this is on purpose or if it can vary day to day at Gibson or Hamer.

3. Hamer necks (post 2000) have fuller shoulders than Gibson necks. This is not about thickness but about girth. I prefer the Gibson necks (I have a 57, 59, 60) but I can see how this is about taste.

4, Hamer quality is about the same as (pre-raid) Gibson custom shop. Some of the Gibson USA standards are just as good as the Hamers I've owned, but the variance can be higher. Both companies make duds. With wood, sometimes that happens.

5. Used, a Hamer costs at least $1,000 less than Gibson custom shop (58 plain top), $2,000 less or more for some models (59 flame top reissue).

6. There is no "must have" Hamer, whereas the Les Paul is as close to a "must have" guitar as there is (along with strats and teles).

Thoughts?

[RobB]

Thoughts?

Not a one, other than, "break out the brollys and let the shitstorm commence!"

[The Shark]

I've owned hundreds of Gibsons and dozens of Hamers. My first observation is that Hamer guitars have never maintained their value like Gibson guitars. I had a vintage shop a few decades ago and nothing's changed since then. I'm not the one to sort that out, but it's a fact. Sure, the early Standards are one of the most sought after vintage guitars, but Gibsons maintain their value above Hamers for the most part. A great Sunburst can be had for the same price as a plain-top Historic Les Paul. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing!

I look for the lightest and most resonant guitars from either manufacturer. I just plug 'em in and give 'em a hard look. I can't rank them any further as manufacturers. Each guitar is an individual work. I'd buy either one without question. I have to take resale value into account less and less as I age. That makes vintage Hamers more appealing to me as time passes. And used and vintage are really all that's left for the Hamer faithful.

[crunchee]

Not a fan of Gibson, though I am a fan of Jay's/Murkat's opinion. If he says it's good, I'll take his word for it.

[cynic]

Aside from the ruler/caliper stuff and obvious price-point differences, IMO it's really too subjective from guitar to guitar and player to player for a worthwhile debate.

[murkat]

First, Two different divisions of a company,

1. Gibson Custom shop, average about 53 to 70 guitars a day. The GCS is floating the hole company.

2. Gibson USA, "the plant", average about 400 guitars a day. I have heard up to 700. Henry's baby, and a rabbit hole.

Two different entities, two different game plans, levels, craftsmanship, woods, materials, etc.

To compare Hamer, nah. Small shop, High in detail, woods, craftsmanship, materials.

Innovator? Not really, but an alternative to the "norm" in a higher standard (no pun intended).

A bizz plan that I believe that started from the on slot, in spirit remains to this day.

The big two have their icon products, if it were not for those icons, we would not have Hamer,

a product from the first baby steps of the vintage market revolution. And made them "cooler"

for the musician, a musician's instrument.

Personally, I can not compare, dissect, discriminate.

The plant is pure volume, and sometimes something nice comes out of the Queen's ass.

The bread and butter shop, Icons galore, and some nice stuff there too.

New Hartford, got its own thing going on, but, it is directed, delegated and throttled to FMIC's needs and wants.

same with FMIC's other great divisions, Jackson custom shop, Gretsch (licensed), etc., oh, and now GUILD.

Apples and Oranges, two different orchards ran by two different land lords.

[tbonesullivan]

I have Gibson guitars. I have Hamer guitars. I live them both, and they both are well made.

Of course I also have a bunch of Heritage guitars, though I know some aren't big fans.

Honestly, if it's well built, and sounds good, I don't care who makes it.

[bubs_42]

Apples to Oranges. We can't compare Hamer to the Les Paul. If Gibson didn't have the LP to stand on, it wouldn't be the company it is today. Lets face it when Chambering works it makes one hell of a guitar. But for the most part on most guitar such as an LP we can just call it what it is. Wieght Relief.

[Studio Custom]

Hamer quality is more consistent and higher across the board. I'd say 70% of Gibsons are below Hamer quality, 25% on par and 5% better.

Les Paul owners are like people in general, 80% of them consider themsleves above average.

[django49]

"Must have" is in the eyes of the beholder. For some reason, I never could stick with a single coil guitar for long (though splitters make a nice compromise. So a Tele or Strat are great in theory, but not for me. Have had dozens of Gibsons, from an original 50s Les Paul to a Super 400. Pretty much everything in between as well. I consider an ES-335 a must have. (Morris, I seem to recall you are not a big fan of semi-hollows). I am now down to three Gibsons, a 335, a 347 (once my "forever" guitar, but it goes away if I get a good bite) and a Chet Atkins nylon string electric (Sorta like a Les Paul). One of these days, even the 335 may drift away, given ownership of some Hamers that "fit" better. Lighter weight, better tone or some such reason-----But I am not quite there yet. There is just something about old Blondie, even if it is not my "go to".

For some reason,Hamers (generally) "fit" me better. I got an Artist many years ago after hearing that it was the "best of a Paul and a 335". YMMV, but I consider it a must have.

Granted, a lot of Hamers are derived from Gibsons. A Standard or Vector (or Sunburst/Archtop/Studio, for that matter) would be considered must have by many, but are not quite "original". A Newport on the other hand is (to me) essential. It may not be completely original in concept, but I would take it over any ES-330 I ever had. (Except that the 330s would be

"worth" more if I still had them). Love the Newport Pro too. (We could talk about solid wood tops vs plywood).

You got me turned on to WCR pickups and that has made a HUGE improvement in a handful of Hamers over here.......More "must have" (or "must keep") AFTER being modded from the Hamer original.

Again, for me, there is something about a Hamer that, however comparable to a Gibson, just FEELS better. (It does not hurt that they can be acquired for less coin). Not every one has been "perfection" but I am much more willing to buy one without playing it than I would one of the million or so Les Pauls floating around.

[Turdus]

Here are my thoughts:

The Gibson LP looks way cooler than any single cutaway guitar Hamer has ever produced.

The Hamer Sunburst/Studio, etc is the ultimate take on the double cut LP Jr, and eclipses it for coolness factor.

I believe there's not much more to debate.

[atquinn]

Here are my thoughts:

The Gibson LP looks way cooler than any single cutaway guitar Hamer has ever produced.

The Hamer Sunburst/Studio, etc is the ultimate take on the double cut LP Jr, and eclipses it for coolness factor.

I believe there's not much more to debate.

I'd love to debate you on principal, but nope, that's pretty much the deal right there.

-

Austin

[coolfeel]

^{Would love to see an exact replica of the LP made by Hamer...}

[hamer_sunburst]

3 Things that I love on my LP 58 historic

1) neck shape is FAT and ROUND - it's the most comfortable neck I have played. But this can vary both on Gibsons and on Hamers. I do however think, that Hamer never produced guitars with such a fat neck....

2) Body thickness is greater on an LP which results in a TOTALY diff. sound. (that I love as well )

3) Neck angle - I think the neck angle is steeper on my historic.

Apart from that, both great guitars (I have 3 Hamers and love them).

In general I DO think that the build quality of Hamer is better than 95% of Gibson Custom Shop (Gibson USA is no match at all here)

Still, a Les Paul is a Les Paul, it sounds different, it feels different it plays different. If you think you can replace a Gibson Historic LP with a Hamer, you'd be wrong (IMO).

My les paul gives me this kind of sweet "whining" sound... hard to describe, but I have never had this on a Hamer...still I love my Hamers, and it's a matter of taste, not better or worse by any means

[diablo175]

Since I own shreddy super-strat Hamers- Cali's & Diablos, and none are similar to my LP or SG, it would be folly for me to try and make a valid comparison.

I will add that my reasons for acquiring the 2 Gibbys that I own were more for nostalgia and for their novelty, i.e. both came factory equipped with Floyds, the SG has 24 frets, the CS LP is one of only 3 with a really cool finish, imo. The build quality on the Gibbys, particularly the LP, doesn't seem as meticulous as the Hamers (binding, fret ends, etc.) and the p'ups and guts of the LP were for shite.

If I had to be 100% honest, the CS LP is NOT worth the money I laid out for it. I've yet to acquire a Hamer that made me feel as though I got ripped off because of the build quality, hardware and p'up choices. Yeah, I've let more than few Hamers go, including some really sweet ones but that was because I just didn't bond with them, through no fault of their own.

[hamerhead]

^{Would love to see an exact replica of the LP made by Hamer...}

I'd love to have a Les Paul built by Hamer. Best of both worlds. Seriously.

My Hamers are better built than my LP (and each play and sound great), but at this point the LP and I are stuck together like two dogs. Well OK, maybe not two dogs. Maybe more like my wife and the mailman. No wait - it was the poolboy. That little bas.....Wait. What was the question?

[crunchee]

^{Would love to see an exact replica of the LP made by Hamer...}

I'd love to have a Les Paul built by Hamer. Best of both worlds. Seriously.

My Hamers are better built than my LP (and each play and sound great), but at this point the LP and I are stuck together like two dogs. Well OK, maybe not two dogs. Maybe more like my wife and the mailman. No wait - it was the poolboy. That little bas.....Wait. What was the question?

You could always order (or try to order) a single-cutaway 'Triple Threat' model...with the one piece neck and steeper angle headstock, that's about as close to an actual LP that Hamer got to, IMO.

[django49]

^{Would love to see an exact replica of the LP made by Hamer...}

I'd love to have a Les Paul built by Hamer. Best of both worlds. Seriously.

My Hamers are better built than my LP (and each play and sound great), but at this point the LP and I are stuck together like two dogs. Well OK, maybe not two dogs. Maybe more like my wife and the mailman. No wait - it was the poolboy. That little bas.....Wait. What was the question?

You could always order (or try to order) a single-cutaway 'Triple Threat' model...with the one piece neck and steeper angle headstock, that's about as close to an actual LP that Hamer got to, IMO.

And a big fat neck too. But built off a Studio Custom (meaning double cutaway and only one tone control) on the limited run. There was someone trying to sell one for quite a while on eBay, but got no takers....IIRC, the asking price was quite a bit over $2k. $2400 maybe(?)

Still, what makes a Paul different enough to be better? Single cut vs double? Heavier weight? Tally Pro has Gibson type controls and singlecut, but a longer scale. Oops. Chambered.

MAYBE the Monaco Elite? I initially thought that was the best "Paul" I ever played. The "ledge" did not bother me much, though I might have preferred the extra tone knob slightly. Then I played a Monaco Elite with upgraded WCR pickups and liked it even more. OOPS, that one is chambered!

Maybe with the right combination of Tally, ME and Triple Threat? OTOH, there are so many Les Pauls out there that it might just pay to scout out the stores and find one that does not have the (too frequent) Gibson deficiencies. It has been so long since I played a REAL Paul-----Maybe I should do that myself.

[crunchee]

You could always order (or try to order) a single-cutaway 'Triple Threat' model...with the one piece neck and steeper angle headstock, that's about as close to an actual LP that Hamer got to, IMO.

And a big fat neck too. But built off a Studio Custom (meaning double cutaway) on the limited run. There was someone trying to sell one for quite a while on eBay, but got no takers....IIRC, the asking price was quite a bit over $2k. $2400 maybe(?)

I remember somebody saying years ago (maybe it was Les Paul himself? Or Henry J.?), that LPs of the '70's with three piece maple necks and shallower angled headstocks sounded differently (i.e., not the same) than original LPs with one piece mahogany necks and a steeper angled headstock, partly due to the string tension from the headstock angle. Maybe Jay/Murkat can make a comparison for us on that point?

[jwhitcomb3]

Here are my thoughts:

The Gibson LP looks way cooler than any single cutaway guitar Hamer has ever produced.

The Hamer Sunburst/Studio, etc is the ultimate take on the double cut LP Jr, and eclipses it for coolness factor.

I believe there's not much more to debate.

I can't even believe you used "eclipses" and "coolness" in the same sentence.

[conorb]

I have both and they both do different things and meet different goals.

I love the fit and finish of my Hamers and their overall playability.

If I really, really want to "rock out" and dig into a guitar, I grab my Les Paul.

conorb

[HoboMan]

In the history of Rock & Roll there have basically been three guitar tones & styles - Gibson, Fender & Rickenbacker.

When Gibson quality went down in the 70s Hamer stepped in to offer an alternative.

Hamers are basically copies of Gibsons.

I grew up on older Gibsons.

My Gibson of preference has always been the SG.

Growing up all of my guitar heros played them - Angus Young, Buck Dharma, Frank Marino, Tony Iommi, Glen Buxton, Michael Bruce and so on.

The Les Paul is considered a must have by many guitarists but I've never got along with single cuts.

I do have a Les Paul DC but doesn't get played as much as my SG.

I got into Hamers about 3 years ago. I bought used ones from the 90s. Went thru about 5 or 6. Everyone of them was a great guitar.

I gigged with my Artist for a full year & loved it.

A few things I noticed were;

• The Hamers had a 1-5/8" nut width as compared to most Gibsons which have a 1-11/16" nut width.
  
• The Hamers all came with Seymour Duncan PUs. I've always been a fan of Gibson PUs.
  
• The Hamers had a 14" radius fretboard, Gibsons have a 12" radius. I definitely prefer the 12" radius.
  

I've recently switched back to Gibsons and am finding I like the overall feel & tone over the Hamers.

Plus the SG is by far the most ergonomically comfortable guitar I've ever played.

I still have my Artist 25th Anniversary but I may be selling it very soon to fund another SG that I just bought last night.

BTW, when's your next gig Morris.

Still trying to get out to see your next band but my schedule has been hectic.

[hamer_sunburst]

You could always order (or try to order) a single-cutaway 'Triple Threat' model...with the one piece neck and steeper angle headstock, that's about as close to an actual LP that Hamer got to, IMO.

I was refering not to the headstock angle but to the neck angle. It is steeper on my historic.

The Monaco Elite is an awesome guitar. It is not a Les Paul, but it is an awesome guitar in it's own right. IMO the 2 main differences are:

1) Body thickness (greater on LPs)

2) Neck (not headstock) angle (greater on LPs)

I think these 2 things play the major role in making the monaco quite a different guitar to a Les Paul (sure there are other things as well.. neck radius, nut width....)

And BTW, my Monaco Elite is not chambered.

What I think is great on the newer Hamers is the finish. It's better than the fake nitros Gibson is producing. It's hard as glass, it doesn't stick, it's thin...

My Les Paul Historic simply has that bottom end punch, balls, that none of my 3 Hamers has (MONEL, Studio Custom, Artist Custom). I think this has to do with the body thickness. String tension is also different due to the diff. neck angle...

I might sell one of my Hamers to fund another Historic at some stage... but who knows. All 3 Hamers that I have are great guitars, that are becoming kind of scarce these days and not so easy to replace.

[marcnorth]

I've had bunch of both in the bass category and quite a few in the guitar category. Some are good, some not so good and some suck. Really the only difference to me is you can buy a Hamer and you've got a better chance it will be a good one. Gibson always has a better resale value too. I still love a good Gibson, It beats the hell out of a Fender any day. IMO

[Ethanw]

Comparing 1990's to current Hamers and Gibsons, I think the Hamers have fewer stupid mistakes/poor workmanship. I've seen really expensive Historic Les Pauls with stain bleeding onto the binding, nuts not cut right, binding channels routed too deep, etc, etc. Most of the higher end Hamer's I've had in the past 20 years don't have this kind of crap workmanship and some were amazingly wellmade. That being said, I'm a Gibson man anyway.