Well, it was fun....... but it's over.

[cmatthes]

Stike has no idea...

[coolfeel]

lol...tryna get one show with that guitfiddle...

[cmatthes]

Oh, you probably will!

[Never2Late]

Santana is a bigger washed up hack than most out there these days. Guess his draw for PRS is the Boomer Generation Bloozedocs and Bloozelawyers (etc.) that still worship at the altar of Woodstock, Bloomfield and Bluesbreakers...

PRS doesn't really have many "A-List" players, but they just have SO DAMNED MANY players with their stuff in their hands.

Orianthi, Akerfeld, Navarro, that dude from 311...PRS is not exactly killing it on the endorser side either - they make up for lack of quality (of endorser) with quantity. They just get their guitars on stages and take out multiple slick full color ads in all the rags on a monthly basis.

Their genius is in marketing their brand. Like Gene Simmons hunting down a fan's last nickel.

Yeah, that was my point using Santana as an example. Getting the guitar into artists' hands, getting them seen together onstage, in ads, in interviews, etc. Brand credibility.

It doesn't really matter how old, tired, overused, compressed, collaborated, or irrelevant Santana is now. His endorsements almost single-handedly launched both PRS and Mesa/Boogie in the '80s when they needed it. He was a rock guitar god, and one of the few to break ranks with Gibson, Fender, and Marshall. Well before Santana became a historical relic, PRS and Mesa were solidly established and able to attract plenty of endorsers.

Did Hamer ever have an endorser of the stature of Santana at his peak?

Probably not, but Hamer had 'trending' endorsees, which can be extremely valuable, especially in today's market. In the 80s they had Steve Stevens, and Hamer named a model after him. They had Tommy Shaw and Jack Blades. Vernon Reid.

It was as if when the 90s hit, the endorsees dried up overnight. After I made my original post I tried to think of well-known modern guitarists who publically played Hamers. I thought of the chick from the Paul Schaffer band, and Tom Dumont...and that's about it.

Well, there was that guy from Linkin Park.....and then there was Gary Hoey......

[Frank Neli]

A manufacturer of guitars like "Hamer" needs a guitar hero, even better is a legend. A guitar legend that stands in the front line over decades an who talks about his guitar as if it meant the world to him. And in different continents and popular styles. And not types such as "I'm a fan of" or "in my sight the best guitarplayer ever". Sorry, but Rick Nilson is in Europa a nobody. I don't want to name a guitarplayer, because this is the task of the advertising management and his strategy.

I'm sure, the missing of such an Idol was the mean problem of Hamer. The reputation to be a Gibson-killer means nothing.

[gorch]

Then there was Andy Summers and the Prototype. Was it mentioned before?

Is he a hero? The Police sure was heroic.

[kizanski]

A manufacturer of guitars like "Hamer" needs a guitar hero, even better is a legend. A guitar legend that stands in the front line over decades an who talks about his guitar as if it meant the world to him. And in different continents and popular styles. And not types such as "I'm a fan of" or "in my sight the best guitarplayer ever". Sorry, but Rick Nilson is in Europa a nobody. I don't want to name a guitarplayer, because this is the task of the advertising management and his strategy.

I'm sure, the missing of such an Idol was the mean problem of Hamer. The reputation to be a Gibson-killer means nothing.

Good points here.

[MCChris]

Then there was Andy Summers and the Prototype. Was it mentioned before?

Is he a hero? The Police sure was heroic.

Most people associate him with his old Tele.

A proper endorsement deal dictates that a guy only plays publically and is photographed with that brand. And if his guitar becomes iconic, he is not allowed to nix the mass production of a signature model.

[diablo175]

I'd be hard pressed to name one legendary player that doesn't already have their own endorsement or own line of guitars. As has been discussed previously, if a guitar builder wants to stay afloat, they need to reach both established markets as well as develop new ones. In light of the diminishing contribution electric guitar seems to have in modern music, the latter seems as difficult as the previous.

[bcsride]

Then there was Andy Summers and the Prototype. Was it mentioned before?

Is he a hero? The Police sure was heroic.

Most people associate him with his old Tele.

A proper endorsement deal dictates that a guy only plays publically and is photographed with that brand. And if his guitar becomes iconic, he is not allowed to nix the mass production of a signature model.

I'd be hard pressed to name one legendary player that doesn't already have their own endorsement or own line of guitars. As has been discussed previously, if a guitar builder wants to stay afloat, they need to reach both established markets as well as develop new ones. In light of the diminishing contribution electric guitar seems to have in modern music, the latter seems as difficult as the previous.

Some good insight there.

Its not just an "endorsement" it is the right type of endorsement. The player and the guitar model (not just the brand I think but the model) need be considered a couple. And the guitar needs to be in the legends hands before they become a legend. If I said Joe Satriani, we all know the guitar. If I said Eric Johnson we all know the guitar. In Eric's case, I think he was playing strats long before he got a dime from Fender. In Satriani's case, I don't know. Someone who knows, tell me what Satriani was playing before Surfing. Somehow Joe shows up with a signature guitar on his first record - someone at Ibanez was proactive.

[cmatthes]

Fender has a very strong endorsement program. Their Signature Models/Series are not just stock instruments in different colors, they actually make effective tweaks and alterations to standard line guitars and have fairly lucrative deals worked out with their stable of artists. That not only keeps them loyal, but also ensures that they promote the instruments and keep them in the public eye.

Look at the Clapton, Beck, Buddy Guy, Robert Cray, etc. Strats...even more recently, the J. Mascis Jazzmaster (both Fender AND Squier versions, since J. wanted them to be great, but affordable for all players), Johnny Marr Jaguar, hell, even BOTH guys from Sonic Youth have signature Jazzmasters out.

Some of these players are hardly household names, but others are icons. They've done a phenomenal job with the Gretsch takeover as well. The jury is still out on Guild Acoustics, but I think they're firmly committed to the line.

Fender truly "gets" the whole marketing thing, and if they ever wanted to revive the Hamer brand, I am confident that they would promote the shit out of it.

[kizanski]

Fender truly "gets" the whole marketing thing, and if they ever wanted to revive the Hamer brand, I am confident that they would promote the shit out of it.

Makes you wonder WTF is really going on...

[Studio Custom]

Fender has a very strong endorsement program. Their Signature Models/Series are not just stock instruments in different colors, they actually make effective tweaks and alterations to standard line guitars and have fairly lucrative deals worked out with their stable of artists. That not only keeps them loyal, but also ensures that they promote the instruments and keep them in the public eye.

Look at the Clapton, Beck, Buddy Guy, Robert Cray, etc. Strats...even more recently, the J. Mascis Jazzmaster (both Fender AND Squier versions, since J. wanted them to be great, but affordable for all players), Johnny Marr Jaguar, hell, even BOTH guys from Sonic Youth have signature Jazzmasters out.

Some of these players are hardly household names, but others are icons. They've done a phenomenal job with the Gretsch takeover as well. The jury is still out on Guild Acoustics, but I think they're firmly committed to the line.

Fender truly "gets" the whole marketing thing, and if they ever wanted to revive the Hamer brand, I am confident that they would promote the shit out of it.

I believe the Yngwie strat was the first signature model and continues to be the best selling one to this day.

[svl]

Screw guitar players, the vast majority of kids (and that ranges from 5 to 25 at this point) could give a shit about guitar heros and don't even know what or who they are (other than the "geezers" they virtually aped in the vid game). They needed to strap one on Miley Cyrus, Britney, Kanye, Psy or "insert flavor of the moment here" and produce a special "The Biebs" model. Mainly they needed, as has been said in this thread a trillion time, to create affordable models in addition to the cork sniffing costlies that us grandpa types kept asking for.

The epic fail was selling the brand in the first place, and Paul, the man who knew how to actually sell the damn things, leaving. Just goes to show a genius/master craftsman can make a hell of a product, but without the pitchman with the heart, soul and patter it don't mean diddly-iddly-dick.

[MCChris]

Well, there was the Shakira Junior ...

Obviously a lot of what we're talking about here, resurrecting a guitar brand, would be tremendously challenging in today's marketplace. But the thing to do, in very basic terms, would be to show up at a place like the Bottom Lounge in Chicago when there's a van or bus with a trailer attached outside and find out what it would take to put Hamers in the whole band's hands. If guitars become popular again and one of those guys is at the forefront, the gamble will have paid off.

And as I've said before, I'm surprised the big guitar manufacturers and instrument retailers haven't formed a lobby to get the industry to start cultivating more guitar bands. "Bands" like the Jonas Brothers don't become popular on their own merits; they're shoved down the public's throats by the Disneys and Simon Cowells of the world. The JoBros don't matter to this discussion anyway, because Gibson has already gotten to them.

[Tres Aardvarks]

What amazes me is their exposure is the county market. I swear they are all on stage with PRS guitars. Except the biggest names- Keith Urban, Brad Paisley, etc. Everybody you have never heard of that is backing somebody you have heard of seems to be playing a PRS guitar.

I noticed that too. I'll bet they've sold a few just from the main guitarist in Taylor Swift's touring band playing 'em! They really are everywhere (aside from the main artist).

While I agree that David Grissom is a "World Class Player", he isn't a name that even 99% of guitarists out there know.

This one still makes me scratch my head, makes you wonder how many of his sig model get sold. Monster player, but really, who knows who he is?

For me, my life and Hamer's mood didn't match up. I loved the 80s guitars, but was a starving college kid. Once I had a real job and got back into music, I snagged a bunch of those shredders for cheap (used). then I started thinking "man, I wish I could have a Californian without a floyd, or a hardtail Watson..oooooooh". Would Hamer do it then? No. No shredders, no interest. Fine, I would've bought one if they had agreed to make it(I had a lot more disposable income then). Years later, and now my musical styles have branched out and I'd love to have a more retro guitar (like any of the Studios with P-90s). Since I have 2 kids and we're single income, the idea that I'd be able to swing one new sure wasn't gonna happen

[cmatthes]

I believe the Yngwie strat was the first signature model and continues to be the best selling one to this day.

I believe the Clapton Signature was the first Signature Model. He road-tested that in the mid-80s, and the model was ready to fly during '87. The Malmsteen was later in '88, as I recall. Still the only decently available option if you want a scalloped board.

[murkat]

^ scalloped with a warranty of...

the only one.

[HamerHokie]

Has it ever occurred to anybody on this thread that maybe a lot more people simply like the PRS guitars better? For starters, they weren't particularly derivative of any earlier shape, whereas the Sunburst has the basic geometry of a Gibson double cutaway LP Special. They offered a 3+3 direct pull headstock, bringing identifying features of Gibson and Fender together. Hamers based on that shape don't balance particularly well and are prone to neck dive. The PRS shape, OTOH, has an extended upper horn, placing the strap button at about the 12th fret for very comfortable balance. Maybe PRS had a better business model as well. For a long time they offered only ONE main set neck shape, one boltneck shape, and the Hamer-like Santana model. Scrape binding is available on the body only, no bound necks or headstocks. Inlays are limited to dots or birdies and you pay dearly for the birdies. However, you could get it in just about any color or burst imaginable, with plain, flame, or quilted maple tops, with or without the double stain. For all the sweat generated over bindings and inlays, PRS proved you didn't have to sweat over binding at all.

They flew out the door on the wings of those bird inlays.

Meanwhile, Hamer offered several guitars based on a not-very-ergonomic shape, with or without binding, dots, crowns, or victory inlays, almost always with a seriously good maple top, refused to do double staining, and was available in only 2 or 3 standard colors. You could get any color as long as it wasn't double-stained, but at a serious upcharge.

Maybe a broad color selection trumps binding and custom features. It has certainly worked for PRS.

Yeah but there is always a WHY behind the current situation and that's what we're discussing. WHY is PRS dominant, how did they get that way. If the marketing is great, you can sell ice to eskimos.

Where I think you have it wrong in your proposition is the implied 'comparison.' I'd say 99% of PRS users never compared a PRS to a Hamer before they bought. They just saw the PRS in the hands of an artist they connect with, tried out a few models and bought. Though I would agree that Hamer's self-limitations hurt them in the long run - when Kim told us that Hamer's color varatiions were limited due to the inventory software they used, I threw up my hands.

[MCChris]

^^^

Exactly. The proportion of PRS marketing aimed at performance features and ergonomics versus celebrity endorsers and aesthetics was/is heavily slanted toward the latter. Straight string pull isn't what's making a Creed fan buy a Tremonti model.

[velorush]

<Snip> If I said Joe Satriani, we all know the guitar. <Snip> Someone who knows, tell me what Satriani was playing before Surfing. Somehow Joe shows up with a signature guitar on his first record - someone at Ibanez was proactive.

This is a particularly great example of marketing prowess! NOTE was recorded with a Kramer Pacer - does anyone associate Satch with a Pacer? Absolutely not. Some prescient sole at Ibanez had their ear to the ground, developed him as an endorser and gave us the advent of the guitar hero with his signature axe, all at the same time. A bit of a gamble, but absolutely profitable. There may have been examples where this strategy didn't pan out, but all it took was one to sell tons of Satch models, but also the slightly similar RGs that were being marketed right beside them.

Has it ever occurred to anybody on this thread that maybe a lot more people simply like the PRS guitars better? For starters, they weren't particularly derivative of any earlier shape, whereas the Sunburst has the basic geometry of a Gibson double cutaway LP Special. They offered a 3+3 direct pull headstock, bringing identifying features of Gibson and Fender together. Hamers based on that shape don't balance particularly well and are prone to neck dive. The PRS shape, OTOH, has an extended upper horn, placing the strap button at about the 12th fret for very comfortable balance. Maybe PRS had a better business model as well. For a long time they offered only ONE main set neck shape, one boltneck shape, and the Hamer-like Santana model. Scrape binding is available on the body only, no bound necks or headstocks. Inlays are limited to dots or birdies and you pay dearly for the birdies. However, you could get it in just about any color or burst imaginable, with plain, flame, or quilted maple tops, with or without the double stain. For all the sweat generated over bindings and inlays, PRS proved you didn't have to sweat over binding at all.

They flew out the door on the wings of those bird inlays.

Meanwhile, Hamer offered several guitars based on a not-very-ergonomic shape, with or without binding, dots, crowns, or victory inlays, almost always with a seriously good maple top, refused to do double staining, and was available in only 2 or 3 standard colors. You could get any color as long as it wasn't double-stained, but at a serious upcharge.

Maybe a broad color selection trumps binding and custom features. It has certainly worked for PRS.

Yeah but there is always a WHY behind the current situation and that's what we're discussing. WHY is PRS dominant, how did they get that way. If the marketing is great, you can sell ice to eskimos.

Where I think you have it wrong in your proposition is the implied 'comparison.' I'd say 99% of PRS users never compared a PRS to a Hamer before they bought. They just saw the PRS in the hands of an artist they connect with, tried out a few models and bought. Though I would agree that Hamer's self-limitations hurt them in the long run - when Kim told us that Hamer's color varatiions were limited due to the inventory software they used, I threw up my hands.

One of my good friends became a Hamer and a PRS dealer at nearly the same time, around 1993 or 1994 (IIRC, it's been a while!). I actually did compare the two (a Studio with a PRS Custom). Being a Strat guy (even then), I preferred the PRS because 1.(as JohnnyB pointed out) the extended upper horn and tummy cut made the guitar feel familiar, but without seeming to be just another Strat derivative; 2. the five-way switching on the PRS provided a couple of tones at least similar to the 2 and 4 on my Strat, so it seemed to me the best of both worlds.

I recall viewing both as beautiful guitars and extremely well made, but with neither being appreciably superior. I was actually saving cash for the PRS when we moved from Kentaxy, after which I quit playing guitar altogether for several years.

Edited to add: just realized I was wrong, it was around 1996 - we left Kentaxy in January of '97. Interesting, that corresponds to around the time PRS moved to the 'big factory.' Perhaps my friend (the late, UNGA BUNGA Music in Paducah) was part of a dealer expansion effort?

[cmatthes]

The PRS' 25" scale is also more "friendly" to a Strat guy than the Hamer scales, which were mostly based on the Gibson 24.75". There are exceptions, like the Daytona, and those are actually some of my favorite Hamers to reach for consistently.

[bcsride]

I think David Grissom "sells" a lot of guitars. I think folks spending $2K (or so?) on a guitar know who David Grissom is. I considered one specifically because of David Grissom (I am shallow). I shuttled on down to GC and played one. Sounded good (though not like DG when I'm on playing it). I loved the neck. I like the look. I love gold tops. But I couldn't handle the frets - they are large. So, no sale because I didn't like the guitar and I am well aware that there is more between me and DG's tone than equipment.

You see lots of DGT action on ebay and TGP - not Strat action or LP Standard action, but lots. Someone around here probably knows this, but I bet DGT is the top PRS sig model and likely outsells 1/2 of the non-sig. models.

While I agree that David Grissom is a "World Class Player", he isn't a name that even 99% of guitarists out there know.

This one still makes me scratch my head, makes you wonder how many of his sig model get sold. Monster player, but really, who knows who he is?

[HamerHokie]

<Snip> If I said Joe Satriani, we all know the guitar. <Snip> Someone who knows, tell me what Satriani was playing before Surfing. Somehow Joe shows up with a signature guitar on his first record - someone at Ibanez was proactive.

This is a particularly great example of marketing prowess! NOTE was recorded with a Kramer Pacer - does anyone associate Satch with a Pacer? Absolutely not. Some prescient sole at Ibanez had their ear to the ground, developed him as an endorser and gave us the advent of the guitar hero with his signature axe, all at the same time. A bit of a gamble, but absolutely profitable. There may have been examples where this strategy didn't pan out, but all it took was one to sell tons of Satch models, but also the slightly similar RGs that were being marketed right beside them.

Has it ever occurred to anybody on this thread that maybe a lot more people simply like the PRS guitars better? For starters, they weren't particularly derivative of any earlier shape, whereas the Sunburst has the basic geometry of a Gibson double cutaway LP Special. They offered a 3+3 direct pull headstock, bringing identifying features of Gibson and Fender together. Hamers based on that shape don't balance particularly well and are prone to neck dive. The PRS shape, OTOH, has an extended upper horn, placing the strap button at about the 12th fret for very comfortable balance. Maybe PRS had a better business model as well. For a long time they offered only ONE main set neck shape, one boltneck shape, and the Hamer-like Santana model. Scrape binding is available on the body only, no bound necks or headstocks. Inlays are limited to dots or birdies and you pay dearly for the birdies. However, you could get it in just about any color or burst imaginable, with plain, flame, or quilted maple tops, with or without the double stain. For all the sweat generated over bindings and inlays, PRS proved you didn't have to sweat over binding at all.

They flew out the door on the wings of those bird inlays.

Meanwhile, Hamer offered several guitars based on a not-very-ergonomic shape, with or without binding, dots, crowns, or victory inlays, almost always with a seriously good maple top, refused to do double staining, and was available in only 2 or 3 standard colors. You could get any color as long as it wasn't double-stained, but at a serious upcharge.

Maybe a broad color selection trumps binding and custom features. It has certainly worked for PRS.

Yeah but there is always a WHY behind the current situation and that's what we're discussing. WHY is PRS dominant, how did they get that way. If the marketing is great, you can sell ice to eskimos.

Where I think you have it wrong in your proposition is the implied 'comparison.' I'd say 99% of PRS users never compared a PRS to a Hamer before they bought. They just saw the PRS in the hands of an artist they connect with, tried out a few models and bought. Though I would agree that Hamer's self-limitations hurt them in the long run - when Kim told us that Hamer's color varatiions were limited due to the inventory software they used, I threw up my hands.

One of my good friends became a Hamer and a PRS dealer at nearly the same time, around 1993 or 1994 (IIRC, it's been a while!). I actually did compare the two (a Studio with a PRS Custom). Being a Strat guy (even then), I preferred the PRS because 1.(as JohnnyB pointed out) the extended upper horn and tummy cut made the guitar feel familiar, but without seeming to be just another Strat derivative; 2. the five-way switching on the PRS provided a couple of tones at least similar to the 2 and 4 on my Strat, so it seemed to me the best of both worlds.

I recall viewing both as beautiful guitars and extremely well made, but with neither being appreciably superior. I was actually saving cash for the PRS when we moved from Kentaxy, after which I quit playing guitar altogether for several years.

Edited to add: just realized I was wrong, it was around 1996 - we left Kentaxy in January of '97. Interesting, that corresponds to around the time PRS moved to the 'big factory.' Perhaps my friend (the late, UNGA BUNGA Music in Paducah) was part of a dealer expansion effort?

You make a good point - If they were priced the same, and I A-B compared a Studio with a Santana, I would probably buy the Santana. It has tremolo, it has a better finish, and it has more colors to choose from.

[Victor (Fret Friend)]

Very sad but all good things etc... I heard this news from a guy I was trading with on eBay (he bailed on a deal but that's OK). I consider myself very fortunate to now have an 88 Cali & a 92 Cent. I could have never afforded one of these new. I fell in love with Hamer guitars around 1984 when they were displayed in a local music shop (Foulds Music in Nottingham, UK). As a kid & before I started my band 'Concrete Sox', the guys at Foulds used to let me go down to the basement & plug in a guitar or 2 if no-one was about (I couldn't even play that well). Great times, great memories. Everytime I play my Hamers now, I will try to remember where/when/how I got to know Hamer...

PS: I don't care whether the prices plummet or rocket - I'll never sell mine...