Fantasy Guitar Mogul

[bubs_42]

Shawn - she was smiling because she knows that's a few dozen more shoes/purses she's gonna buy!

I am blessed she spends nothing, or nearly nothing.

[cmatthes]

Shawn - she was smiling because she knows that's a few dozen more shoes/purses she's gonna buy!

I am blessed she spends nothing, or nearly nothing.

Does she have a sister?

[Cary]

I could go on and freaking on, but you know what? I'm just a father of two that loves this Brand, the HFC and people here. Not many of us were willing to pony up for a Brand New Hamer or had in the past. If they cannot sell guitars to it core base then you have no foundation to build a house on.

I am by no means an MBA, and know little about costs to produce guitars. However, to me this was always the problem: Hamer made great guitars that somehow lost their cachet. I thought they were moving in the right direction when they brought out the 25th Anniversary base model. Put out a solid, quality-made American rock machine at a highly competitive price. Keep your higher end models, but get your foot in the door with guitars that the everyday hack can afford.

Instead, they started concentrating on guitars like the Improv. I'm not knocking Jol's vision, because I respect the hell out of him, but who here can afford, or at least justify, $7,000 for an Improv? Or any of their guitars at today's list prices? I know there's a few, but the majority of us aren't professional musicians. I am one who is guilty of only ever buying a couple of my Hamers new, and I have ten. But when the choice is to buy a custom guitar, or, say, buy your 16 year old a car for the same price, the necessities are going to win out with most of us. Put out some basic AMERICAN MADE guitars like Specials, and basic, mahogany Standards, and put them in the hands of popular musicians to get the brand out there. Reel 'em in with the basics, and hopefully they'll eventually pony up for the higher-end stuff. Keep your higher end custom-shop stuff, but realize that if all you're producing is $5,000 and $6,000 guitars, then you're competing with brands like PRS who DO have cachet with today's younger guitarists.

Maybe that's not a do-able business model in today's world, with real-life manufacturing costs in America, but that's what I would try to do. Criticize away

[Steve Haynie]

I would sit on the three million dollars and see what happens when Guitar Center collapses. It might be possible to buy Gibson or Fender for three million. Heck with Hamer.

[diablo175]

I dunno. McChris has pointed out a shift in the music landscape that would have considerable impact on any plan for revamping a guitar brand/line- namely, the guitar's reduced prominence in modern music. Investing in capturing market shares of a dwindling market sounds dicey to me. I have faith that the guitar will eventually regain some of it's glory as all things musical tend to enjoy revivals/resurgences. But right now? Money would be better spent trying to reignite the guitar-dominated music scene.

[RichRS6]

I would sit on the three million dollars and see what happens when Guitar Center collapses. It might be possible to buy Gibson or Fender for three million. Heck with Hamer.

Good point.

I'm sure there are other brands finding the trading climate very difficult.

Who could be next ?

[gorch]

In a dream, I would add my Red Special Bo Diddley theme to the line up and cut off the 80s line-up, develop the brand to distinct musical directions rather than the broad market. Keeping in mind that it would not be possible to compete with the big players. I'd re-configure the current line-up to have as few overlap as possible. Take any order as is - build to order. Strip production times from up to 2 years down to max 6 months, even 3 months on standards. I'd create a foreseeable time frame to receive the instrument and would try to communicate the building process not just to the public, but to the individual buyer. Employ modern social media.

In essence build for a niche market in a modern way.

In reality, I think 3 millions credit line to re-market the brand is not very much, considering that you would have to find a workshop and builders. They all reward their grant. It's got to sell quite a lot of guitars to make a living. So far I know, Jens Ritter is a 2 person shop. And he's eventually selling his basses and guitars for high prices.

I really like the idea!

[earachemyeye]

I agree, 3 mill is not alot to start with if you have to move and start over. You could probably find the necessary machines to get production going for a good price used. The business plan would have to be determined by how they are produced I would guess. The guitars made have to fit the current trends so which models would do that? Which guitar oriented genre has the biggest target to aim current models at? Cross over country gets my vote too.

[django49]

"I am by no means an MBA, and know little about costs to produce guitars." (Excerpt from Cary).

Interesting....I AM an MBA (as well as a CPA, though not practicing as such any more). Any my wife is a (now retired) sales/marketing executive. (There is also some woodworking expertise around here, but NOTHING that would cause me to make or seriously repair guitars!)

Neither of us would know where to start with a financial plan for converting a name and a $3 million line into a viable business, I suspect we could add some mental contributions to evaluating and fine-tuning ideas. And there are certainly people here with a history on the retail side of Hamer (and others). Not to mention people with great skills on the repair and modification side.

The starting point would have to take into account many comments above.....Like what is the goal? Can it then be made to work?

Such as Paul Reed Smith had good ideas and product. He famously nearly starved while hanging around the stage door to put his product into the hands of Carlos Santana. (Who is also linked with Randall Smith at Mesa). I believe Leo Fender and George Fullerton (and crew) did much of the same back in the day.

I know which Hamers (and other guitars) I like most. I am not all that much into the 80s and "shredders". Obviously others see those as the reason for Hamer's existence. Is there enough demand for such to catch up with those mentioned that are already using that segment to rebuild? At the same time, how much demand will there be for USA made Monacos, Newports, Talladegas, etc? (And are those, as well as the iconic ones, like Standard, Studio, Vector, sufficiently differentiated from the models they were derived from, largely with the G word on the headstock, to capture a viable sales number absent big spending on marketing---including giving instruments to upcoming acts? I KNOW they are better in terms of quality, but how do you get that message out when money is tight and there is a surplus of instruments----and manufacturing capacity-----out there?)

Country/crossover? Maybe. How much potential is there? Will they take to an unknown name and/or go for something beyond the more traditional Teles and Dreadnoughts, at least in a big way.

On custom orders......Pretty much discussed above. Chicken and egg......How do you get people to spring for high end things without awareness of the brand? Most of us here can get what we want at a reasonable price used, As much as we dislike the closure of the window on futures COs, you cannot build a business on the hopes that all those people will win the lottery.

Side light on COs......I have acquired some such Hamers (used). I have ONE (non-Hamer) CO that I spent a lot on, waited a long time for, was everything I asked for, and yet is NOT the answer I was looking for.

The related issue......The competition. If you want the "best" there are a number of makers out there......Will not try to name them all, but such as Nik Huber, Ruokangas, McInturff make instruments arguably as good or better (maybe much more so) than anything Hamer has made.......And Gibson? Yeah, right! Of course, you either buy from (very limited) stock or submit big bucks and WAIT. Hard to find one to play in advance of purchase in many markets. And the odds of getting a "deal" on a used one are low.

I don't know that FMIC gave Hamer a full chance. But how far could they push on that particular string? MAYBE they could have devoted more hours per week and gotten the delivery time down to months from a year or two. But how many more orders would they find to refill that pipeline? IF there WAS a viable business plan (and not just killing the competition) I am sure there were SOME wise minds to ponder it. Ultimately it IS business.....As FMIC, Gibson and Guitar Center are painfully aware----And increasingly so.

We have seen the tons of NOS Hamers hit the market, blown out to Willcutt and other dealers in bulk. Many of them sharply discounted from (obviously over inflated) list prices. And some of these were already several years old. Many of them are STILL in dealer inventories. Again, how do you compete with such a bottleneck of relatively high priced guitars, even if discounted? Certainly eats into theoretical profit margins!

Side note.....As much as there are things I dislike about GC, I got a lot of chances to touch and play high end gear (the good old days at the Hollywood store) that I never (well, seldom) bought. I think I can recall ONE TIME I could actually play new USA Hamers in a "mom and pop". That was many years ago and I am on the west coast where they are less prevalent. Having a chance to physically "bond" with an instrument, rather than read the marketing hype (Yeah, PRS is the master of that!) was a big help in loosening my purse strings, even if I bought used, scouted the neat new tools on the Internet, etc. And, generally, found used ones that someone else had already taken the depreciation on

At risk of repetition, most of us are able to find what we want, eventually, at a fair price in the used market. Most of us are not going to place that custom order....And if so, it is generally going to be a once in a lifetime thing.....Yeah, I know there are "lawyer guitars" and such.....Some of mine no doubt fall into that realm. I love them but am not going to plop down $5k or more to propagate the herd. Well, maybe I WILL win the lottery........

Shoot.....More questions than answers. I WOULD be more than happy to compare notes and provide input if/when things get more focused. In the meantime, back to the chicken and egg thing....IF someone is sitting on $3 million of funding, they certainly will not do it without a reality based business plan. But are there those amongst us that can/will develop such a plan unless there is at least SOME potential for funding?

People and businesses are sitting, collectively, on TRILLIONS in cash. Money is available. Sort of. Fear is rampant. ("Damn, that fiscal clit is gonna kill us all!") (sic) There will ultimately be growth and maybe even prosperity again. I guess we are all open to ideas on how to make that happen........Seems like the elected class will have a hard time making it happen. Unfortunately.

Not sure if that helps at all, but it gets it off my chest.

Oh, about that CO I WOULD have submitted.........

[hikarateboy]

Great thoughts. A bit of a clarification of the thinking behind the 3 million credit line.

I set it there thinking or hoping that Hamer wouldn't be revived by a large musical instrument company with deep pockets but rather a person or two with a willingness to bringing it back by going back to how it was done before. Small shop, small work force, feet on the streets marketing just like before with an expectation that you need to build it again brick by brick and that would take some time even with the small but great reputation in place.

Basically I was thinking what if someone like a Paul, Jol or someone here got a chance at it. 3 million seemed like a reasonable risk limit for a person or two.

Absolutely agree on the guerrilla marketing thinking. social media aspect. I would throw this out there though. When I first discovered them the guitars were not cheap but definately within the reach of what your normal everyday player could afford with models like the straight forward rock machine we know as the Special. I would revive that approach as a gateway for the new fans.

Would it be hard? Yes. Worth it? Hard to say and depends on what you value. I dont think Hamer regardless of marketing would ever be Fender or Gibson, PRS? It could of should of have been, I have to agree on the marketing fail and the tunnel vision from the mid 90s to current here unfortunately. I do think that it fully deserves it place along side the Tom Andersons, Suhr, etc.

So with that said I am soliciting investors, who's in? I kid, I kid.

[murkat]

" I do think that it fully deserves it place along side the Tom Andersons, Suhr, etc. "

Yes it does, and should be.

anything less, well, then....

One word.

Passion.

Passion does not pay,

dedication and perseverance can... eventaully.

the name, history, quality, etc. is already established.

The torch just needs to be picked up off the floor that has been kicked around and left to tarnish.

fwiw,

NTL is misunderstood by most not in the know, they assume it is an abbreviation for National...

To me, it is very personal, my approach to everyday life and all encompass.

In the past, Never The Less. My bands name.

Today, Never Too Late. To do what you have to do, need to do, want to do, can do.

I see this with the name Hamer.

Like other sprout Guitar shops that started in the 70's, 80's,

Players were going to these shops, asking, begging for something better than the norm....

Pancake butcher block Les Pauls, 3 bolt Strats, etc etc. It was junk and we know it.

A void was filled and cutting into the biggies margins of a pair new fresh socks and sheets every fuckin morning.

So, biggies bought them out.... and here We are... again.

I would do it in a heartbeat if I could, but could not do it alone.

Someday, somebody will with a great team behind it and resurrect the Phoenix.

Baby steps... and hate to compare to, but I did learn a few things while I was "there",

I would,

Bring back historically correct 4 digits, sunbursts, B&C only.

Standard specials and sunburst specials for the low end.

That be a good start off

[gorch]

The very important, eating from the 3m credit line will require to eventually pay any bite off! Then there is to make money for your personal wealth. Now it's you for the money making concept. We are easily in a price range of 2500 quit for a single guitar.

Sorry, I'm destroying dreams...

[hikarateboy]

Gorch focuses in on a great point. The first question I would ask in response to that is: What is the current cost to produce the attainable entry level $450-600 Hamer guitar from the mid 80's? A CNC machine just as Hamer used to rough things out later on cuts the time the labor cost but costs a lot.

One option and I honestly dont know which companies are doing it but know that some are, is farming the basic CNC woodwork out overseas and assembling here. Is that a unacceptable or a a negative? I would assume you can set your acceptance standards anywhere you want for what you would take.

Ulitmately (pun fully intended) the question is based upon the previously discussed production price (including overhead) what is the actual msrp after adding a reasonable profit and dealer margin? Is it $2500? I wont be surprised if it is but makes it hard to attract any buyers other than the recent target market?

As Murkat and I believe, the corner stone are the Specials on the low end which make it work but a $2500 Special is a bit over the top no?

[hikarateboy]

I should add no carved tops out of the gate except on special order as they are labor intensive.

[murkat]

A. contract the rough body and neck out to a cnc, bedahl contractor. (Hamer did this).

Contract out most of the rough work for that matter, usa baby.

There are plenty of lil shops that do this and earn for it, couple of guys on HFC know this...

B. fine points, detail, custom ops, prep, etc. done in house.

C.Finish work contracted out.

D. wet sand, buff, polish, build, setup, etc. in house.

deal direct.

Works for~

Lakeland basses, Carvin, a few others.

and get out to the local gigs and pimp that shit. give it to them for the gig.

[cmatthes]

You also have to keep in mind what is out there as competition right now.

35-40 years ago, you had a slack US guitar market and imports were cheap...and crap. Guitar-driven music was at a peak, and everywhere. If you wanted a guitar, you went to a local mom and pop shop and paid whatever they were asking, and you were usually treated as a valued customer. The record companies were in full swing, and getting any sort of label interest was a huge deal, and something that people actually aspired to attain. Going to concerts was an exciting event, and you actually looked forward to reading up in Circus, Creem, RS, etc. about when your favorite artists were going to release their next album. It was a pretty exciting time to be a guitar player.

Going into 2013, you have a bloated US guitar market that is churning out a wide range of quality instruments, but are finally starting to squash their pricing a bit (a trend I think we're going to see continue) after years of pricing guitars like European luxury cars. The imports are of a quality that is beginning to rival the US made products at price points that are well below what any US manufacturer could meet. There is a rising tide of cheap Chinese fakes that are going for even less, and to most beginners, they look exactly like the US models, so why spend 10x more? Guitar music is declining fast. The availability of cheap computers and recording equipment can make any talentless idiot with an autotune filter on their iPhone can become an overnight YouTube sensation and sell their crap on iTunes. The record companies are pretty much dead, and top name concert tickets are going the way of pro football tickets (unattainable for most normal people or locked up by corporate interests). There are a lot of great things for guitar players out there, but in general, the population is losing interest with every subsequent generation.

I honestly saw what struck me as a turning point recently. One of the guitar mags out there had as a cover feature, "the 40 Greatest Led Zep Songs Ever!" Isn't that a bit like saying, "22 of the best letters of the alphabet ever!!" ?? Is there really THAT LITTLE out there to put on the cover of a magazine? How many months do we have to wait for yet another Jimi or SRV or EVH cover? It's getting pretty dry out there unless something exciting sparks the interest of a younger generation again. Sorry, but Joe Bonamassa is more exciting to a bunch of white guys in their 50s and 60s than to any kids coming up. THAT'S not a healthy injection into a declining art form!

Anyway, I think it would be pretty difficult to spark interest without maintaining high quality standards and a low-to-mid priced line of guitars. They'd have to be USA made, but as a culture/society, we've priced ourselves out of domestic products like quality guitars. Where the Specials did it for kids like me growing up, today, it's tough to compete with cheap Schecters with inch thick gooped on finishes and crap wood (that are actually getting better) when every band kids today like are playing those. As many people have said here before, spend a good chunk of money on ADVERTISING AND PROMOTION. You CAN still sell a great guitar like Hamer, but people have to know it's out there. If they don't...it doesn't exist.

[hikarateboy]

You also have to keep in mind what is out there as competition right now.

Well you are a whole lot of fun aren't you.

[cmatthes]

Well, since it IS a fantasy mogul thing...

I'd kill the competition by planting undocumented C.I.T.E.S. protected hardwoods in their wood stores, effectively shutting them down. I'd then make sure that all the kick-assed designs people seem to want the most, Standards, Sunbursts, multi-course basses, Californians, etc. were available. I'd probably have some sort of "Guitar Designer" workspace on a cool website that would allow people to configure pre-priced, available custom options to help plot out custom orders, and would spend a good bit of money getting cool guitars in the hands of cool players that would actually want them and use them.

[hikarateboy]

you're hired!

[murkat]

you're hired!

yup. I would.

In a heartbeat.

[Andrew]

I am with Murkat.

The only way is to release Hamer from Fender completely.

If you think ahead ten years the Tribute bands will be the main attraction as the original bands will be retired (to be polite). And the tribute acts will want replicas of those eighties guitars. Not similar guitars but accurate replicas. That means nitro-lacquer and authentic hardware.

Now a small Hamer team could exist on restorations and completing custom orders (if Fender was generous enough to pass them on) for a few years and be in a position to cash in on the replica market in the future.

When it comes to custom orders none of the precious "I don't want to do that" Jol was so guilty of. Standard headstocks on a Sunburst - certainly. Checkerboard finish - of course. KK Downing replica - no problem.

You would need a 'consultant' who has been associated with Hamer, Paul H. being the best candidate, but they don't need to do anything just add their name.

Jol got it wrong when he said: 'We don't make them like we used, we make them better'. Maybe but less attractive to many. Make them like they used to and that includes contracting out the basic woodworking!

[Uncle Thor's Hamer]

I'd probably have some sort of "Guitar Designer" workspace on a cool website that would allow people to configure pre-priced, available custom options to help plot out custom orders, and would spend a good bit of money getting cool guitars in the hands of cool players that would actually want them and use them.

Yup I think that is one of the big failings of the Kaman group. Ovation, Adamas, and Hamer never had good websites. Try figuring out what your options are to custom order an Adamas today. First off there is no Adamasguitars.com!!! If you figure out to go to Ovationguitars.com and click on Custom Shop you get a flaccid marketing page "Be as creative with your guitar as you are with your music! For more information contact your Local Ovation Dealer". Really?

How about an interactive site where one can select all kinds of woods, finishes, preamps, configurations, hardware, and colors. Build your design virtually and see a rendering of what it would look like. How about lots of pictures of custom orders past and present. Pictures of the build process. Pictures of the finished products. Pictures of shit-eating-grins on the faces of customers. Pictures of hot young female musicians on stage playing a Hamer (or Adamas or Ovation). Pictures of studly young men on stage playing their Hamer in front of hordes of fans. Something to get the prospective customer salivating over having a custom order and then letting him/her satisfy his modern instant gratification gene by building it virtually.

How about a website which is a comprehensive resource on the details of the guitars. Not just an overview or some dry specs, but details. Newbies could learn and the experts could research.

As to the actual products, idk. How many tele, strat, les paul, flying v, firebird, or 335 style makers are there? Is there really a demand for yet another? Some game changers are called for, which Hamer certainly did a bit of stylistically. Some technology advances are called for, a la Charlie Kaman's long list of inovations with the Ovation and Adamas.

[FrankieIII]

Here's a plan that utilizes outsourcing production overseas which is necessary to significantly reduce production costs while maintaining a high quality to beat the big players with exceptional bang for your buck/value. I certainly would prefer USA production to stimulate the USA economy, etc. but it's just not economical. I'd rather see Hamer alive and well with great instruments produced overseas than no Hamer at all:

• Gain 100% ownership of name.
• Hire the marketing company used by Ibanez to develop a marketing campaign.
• Determine which old Hamer models were the most popular and/or best selling to reproduce.
• Develop new and artist models (endorsement deals) for popular artists.
• Outsource all Mfg to the Japanese Mfg plant with highest quality standards.
• Hire BCR/Greg or Murkat as Director of Mfg to determine all hardware, electronics, and materials to be used on all models, and to oversee (in person daily) all aspects of Mfg to ensure old/new models are accurately/faithfully produced with the highest quality of fit, finish, sound, and playability.
• Price all models in line (or slightly lower) to comparable Ibanez models.
• Show big at NAMM and the dealer channel will take care of itself. "Build it and they will come" will prevail if it's a great product economically priced.

[LordOfTheThighs]

I'd start selling these for starters.

(Of course you'd piss Nielsen off, by selling them.)

[django49]

"How about an interactive site where one can select all kinds of woods, finishes, preamps, configurations, hardware, and colors. Build your design virtually and see a rendering of what it would look like."

As but one example of what MIGHT be done....Jaros has attractive and well built guitars......Lots of GUITAR porn, as well as some attractive ladies on their site. But importantly a way to spec out a guitar and see how it would look AND what it would COST. I realize it would be more difficult to do something that can portray ANYTHING any of us could come up with. But I would not think it THAT much a problem.

I realize they are focused on one specific style guitar and, seemingly at more of a "country" market, so they are aimed at a niche market. But this gives some perspective, including the price point at which a "comparable" Hamer would have to compete.

I DID find an extremely nice Jaros, used, for an excellent price a year or so ago......No affiliation other than owning one.

PS,..... the company is under its third ownership......The second WAS that dude in Las Vegas, Ed Roman.

http://www.jarosguitars.com/index.html