Playing a pentanonic scale of any key at five different spots on the neck.

[Crimsontider]

I grew up a drummer, but played guitar on the side in two phases of my life. 16-25 and then again when I turned 40, which coincidentally coincided with my marriage

During my first phase, I just about played the pentatonic (which I called blues scale), on the fret for the bar chord, like 5th for A. The only other addition was going up to the 12th fret, and using the 2nd fret and open strings.

It took me 40 years to discover that you can play scales like the pentatonic major and minor of any key at five different fret spots within an octive or it repeats. I was amazed I never thought of it. Now after a 3 or so years, I can pretty much go up and down the neck to any of those 5 fret spots and quickly pick up how the scale is played for that key at that position. It opened up a whole new world.

Just a question. Is this something I should have know at 16? And is what I am saying making sense?

Also, please list your 2 favorite scales.

[Crimsontider]

After thought, this question may seem very elementary to some. Playing the same scale, but just a couple of frets higher. I apologize to anyone shaking their head.

[atquinn]

I figured out how to play all the forms of the major scale all over the neck in the first couple days after I picked up an electric. I took piano lessons for about 8 years before that, so I imagine that's related. Although, Interestingly, I took classical guitar lessons for a year before I got an electric and didn't really learn anything

In a way it was good, because, once I heard about them, I quickly realized the major modes are the same pattern, just shifted. And pentatonic/blues scales are the same scale with notes left out/added in (unlike most people I think, I learned pentatonic scales a couple years in). But in another way, it was crippling because it is very hard for me to play things that break out of that pattern, like, for example the harmonic minor scale all over the neck. Now admittedly, that's due to my laziness. But if I had it do do over, I think it probably would have been more useful to see things in terms of playing chords all over the neck and deriving the scales from those as opposed to the other way around. My mind just doesn't work like that. Still got some years left to figure it out though.

No matter how much you know, there's always more to learn!

-

Austin

[Crimsontider]

I learned everything by ear, and was more concerned with rhythm than lead, I was a drummer in the band at UA and clubs. As you move up the neck to a new position of 2-4 frets, the notes keep revolving in the same scale, some may start at a higher octave, the pattern changes, but it's consistently 5 different patterns until you hit the next octave on the neck. I have only done this with pentatonic major and minor only.

Folks like you that know the neck like a piano must see things more clearly, I am just starting to scratch the surface. I just always sat on a spot and played away. You can do so much more when you can move up and down the neck in a key, it really enables you to improvise without worrying about hitting a bad note.

[Dasein]

After thought, this question may seem very elementary to some. Playing the same scale, but just a couple of frets higher. I apologize to anyone shaking their head.

No head shaking man -- the neck of the guitar is a wonderful puzzle and you'll spend your whole life learning how to coax out its secrets and mysteries.

Your next challenge is modes. Figure out where the Pentatonic scale and positions super-impose over the modes --- wait till you figure that one out....

[John Hurtt]

Ah....pentatonic boxes...gotta love 'em.

[Crimsontider]

After thought, this question may seem very elementary to some. Playing the same scale, but just a couple of frets higher. I apologize to anyone shaking their head.

No head shaking man -- the neck of the guitar is a wonderful puzzle and you'll spend your whole life learning how to coax out its secrets and mysteries.

Your next challenge is modes. Figure out where the Pentatonic scale and positions super-impose over the modes --- wait till you figure that one out....

I know that I like jazz that uses modes, like Parker, Davis, Bill Evans and Coltrane. You have given me good direction.

I had no idea about pentatonic boxes, I just noticed one day that you could play the same notes of a scale a few frets up or down and it resulted in 5, so I went about learning them. After that I learned what I am assuming is the minor version.

I could not do this 2 years ago. It's very basic, a cheap amp and an import guitar. This is the last thing I will post for awhile. Not good to post yourself playing too much.

[Crimsontider]

After thought, this question may seem very elementary to some. Playing the same scale, but just a couple of frets higher. I apologize to anyone shaking their head.

No head shaking man -- the neck of the guitar is a wonderful puzzle and you'll spend your whole life learning how to coax out its secrets and mysteries.

Your next challenge is modes. Figure out where the Pentatonic scale and positions super-impose over the modes --- wait till you figure that one out....

My dad exposed me to modal, be bop jazz from when I was a kid. I liked it, but wasn't familiar with modes until I watched the Charlie Parker movie. I have looked it up, but I still can't grasp exactly what it is in it's simplest nature. Any help appreciated.

[gorch]

Check out "Fretboard Logic" vol. I and II from Bill Edwards. It will lift the curtain.

Scalewise, I'm happy with pentatonics and diatonics. There's so much to learn on harmonics and playing that I don't need another scale though. I'm pretty much into intervallic playing as opposed to the usual scale rundown.

For intervallic improvisation I recommend Carl Verheyen's book on the matter.

[zzzdat]

I learned by ear early on, Hendrix, Clapton, Beck, Page, Allmans, Johnny Winter, Deep Purple, so on. I never practiced scales, I guess I did by immitating others. I still don't sit down and practice scales, I just play and try to make things sound good to me. Later when I gained knowlege of modes, scales, and other technical names for things, I discovered that I was already using them all the time just by playing licks I liked. The one thing I have done is transpose standard positions to other areas of the neck so I could string together longer runs. What i like to do playing live sometimes is to pick a place on the neck that is not where I usually go and see what happens, sometimes sucks, sometimes very cool. To me expression trumps technical knowledge, if you have both you rock.

Cool Beans

Gene

[Nathan of Brainfertilizer Fame]

While I'm aware of the 5 boxes, I seem to always use the root box up and down the neck. I've never seen much advantage to using the other boxes, but I'm not much of a soloist, and I don't have a band or gigs.

[coolfeel]

Sometimes you have to think outside the box... ;-)

[dragan]

5 positions of scales or (5 note scales ie pentatonic ) ea one relates to a " cowboy" major chord . then relate the 5 major positons to minor: ala am= gmajor or am= cmajor & youve got the whole neck dicked in any key ! of course any note can be used in any key , it just depends on how its used ( accidentals / blues notes )

[diablo175]

Ah....pentatonic boxes...gotta love 'em.

I like lick boxes.

[zorrow]

I figured that out during the first few weeks I picked up an electric, but to be fair, I had spent the previous year studying classical guitar, practicing first-sight reading around one hour almost every day. That training did push me to try to find the notes everywhere on the fretboard.

However, I also "discovered" geometric shapes in every scale I learned back then and that was what actually made me "get it" and still drives my thinking nowadays: there are little shapes I can combine and also play in every octave (triangles, squares, parallelograms and others, of different sizes and orientations) which contain intervals. Sometimes they skip one string or two, and sometimes not, and they are all very easy to retain for me.

As of the "outside-inside" playing, I use whatever I find cool, adding chromatic passing notes here and there, mostly to complete 3-notes-per-string patterns. I also noticed some players just go with fast symmetrical runs and just end or emphasize the "right" notes in their phrases. I try to do the same.

And last, but not least, years ago I read something that Pat Martino wrote about the relative movements of notes. He said that the ear adapts easily to moving a semitone up or one tone down from an "outside" to an "in" note. I've developed several finger sequences based on this and it's true it sounds great. I've even experimented with the reverse pattern (going up one tone or down one semitone to the "in" note) and I've obtained some amazing results in some contexts.

Well, I think I've exposed here the essence of my very own style, the core of my personal approach to playing. I do know it's idiosyncratic and unorthodox, but I hope you'll find something useful for you in there anyway. Everything else, please feel free to discard it -it does work for me, but it doesn't have to work for you necessarily.

Thanks for reading this far!

(Edited to fix some typos)

[gorch]

What do you mean talking "outside" and "in" notes, Zorrow?

[zorrow]

What do you mean talking "outside" and "in" notes, Zorrow?

I mean notes that in theory don't belong to the mode you're playing in.

As an example, just play a barred Gm chord on the 3rd fret. Then, just play one semitone down and then the corresponding chord note, using a two-notes-per-string ascending pattern:

E -----------------------------------------2--3--B ---------------------------------2--3----------G -------------------------2--3------------------D -----------------4--5--------------------------A ---------4--5----------------------------------E --2--3-----------------------------------------

In this case you're moving from a note which is a semitone down, no matter if it's in or out of Gm, to a note that is one semitone up and does belong to the chord.

Now, do the same again, but this time going from one whole tone up, down to a chord tone:

E -----------------------------------------5--3--B ---------------------------------5--3----------G -------------------------5--3------------------D -----------------7--5--------------------------A ---------7--5----------------------------------E --5--3-----------------------------------------

The two sequences above outline the chord Gm (I underlined the Gm notes), but of course you can outline it twice with a 1-2-4-2 fingering pattern, as follows:

E --------------------------------------------------------------2--3--5--3-B --------------------------------------------------2--3--5--3-------------G --------------------------------------2--3--5--3-------------------------D --------------------------4--5--7--5-------------------------------------A --------------4--5--7--5-------------------------------------------------E --2--3--5--3-------------------------------------------------------------

You can also outline a scale, or part of it, as follows --this one will outline one-note-per-string belonging to the first box of the Gm pentatonic:

E --------------------------------------------------------------2--3--5--3-B --------------------------------------------------2--3--5--3-------------G --------------------------------------2--3--5--3-------------------------D --------------------------2--3--5--3-------------------------------------A --------------2--3--5--3-------------------------------------------------E --2--3--5--3-------------------------------------------------------------

This last one is in addition very easy to play, as you use the same 1-2-4-2 pattern vertically down the fretboard, without moving horizontally at all. Played fast and with attitude, and finishing the last G note with a wide vibrato (or even better, bending it to Bb), sounds simply great.

Actually, I often use this run starting from the D string, which goes for a shorter and sweeter burst, like this:

E --------------------------------------2--3--5--3--(6~~~~~~~~~~)B --------------------------2--3--5--3---------------------------G --------------2--3--5--3---------------------------------------D --2--3--5--3---------------------------------------------------A ---------------------------------------------------------------E ---------------------------------------------------------------

Now you can start exploring every possible combination.

For example, you can reverse the fingering pattern, doing 4-2-1-2, as follows:

E --------------------------------------5--3--2--3--(6~~~~~~~~~~)B --------------------------5--3--2--3---------------------------G --------------5--3--2--3---------------------------------------D --5--3--2--3---------------------------------------------------A ---------------------------------------------------------------E ---------------------------------------------------------------

And now you have all the elements to go really wild, oulining scales or chords by mixing patterns to your own tastes, applying the fingerings that are easier to play for you or doing whatever you like --for example, adding more tension by playing an arpeggio two frets upper and resolving to the right chord at the last moment, or moving up and down on the same string and so on.

The basic principle remains simple however: just "envelop" chords and scale notes with notes that are one semitone down or one tone up. Used wisely and mixed with other approaches, this can add a lot of spice to your arsenal of chops.

Did I answer to your question?

[Tres Aardvarks]

I had a pretty basic understanding, but hadn't worried about it too much since I was first and foremost a bass player (and not one prone to busting out solos). When I started playing lead guitar with some buddies, I realized I had to get working. Just picked up this book, and while I can skim over a lot of it, I am learning stuff out of it.

[gorch]

What do you mean talking "outside" and "in" notes, Zorrow?

...

The basic principle remains simple however: just "envelop" chords and scale notes with notes that are one semitone down or one tone up. Used wisely and mixed with other approaches, this can add a lot of spice to your arsenal of chops.

Did I answer to your question?

Thanks Zorrow! I know the principle from a bossanova workshop, where it's used more pointy.

[zorrow]

What do you mean talking "outside" and "in" notes, Zorrow?

...

The basic principle remains simple however: just "envelop" chords and scale notes with notes that are one semitone down or one tone up. Used wisely and mixed with other approaches, this can add a lot of spice to your arsenal of chops.

Did I answer to your question?

Thanks Zorrow! I know the principle from a bossanova workshop, where it's used more pointy.

Very interesting!

I didn't know bossa nova used that principle --well, I actually know almost nothing about that genre.

However, all this proves that it's always good to explore other genres to improve one's musical vocabulary. It's just funny I got it from a jazz guitarist I've just listened to occasionnaly.

[velorush]

Great posts Zorrow!

To the OP: personally, I can (and did) read scales, have them shown to me, etc., but until I 'discovered' it for myself, it wasn't mine. One of my fraternity brothers let me borrow some sort of blues scale book around '86 or so - it had all these boxes and I thought, "I'll never memorize all this stuff." I began playing over them and discovered they each contained the same notes (and only 6 - pentatonic plus the flat 5). I then began to map out which notes and it (the obvious) became clear to me. The night after he loaned me the book we were jamming on Johnny B. Goode and I launched into Chuck's solo - he was greatly impressed ('cause neither of us knew how to do that prior). He asked, "where did you get that?" I told him out of the book he loaned me. He said, "just keep it!"

My discovery on modes came in nerd school, reading an article in "Guitar for the Practicing Musician" (around '88). Steve Vai was waxing on about this mode is spelled 1 2 3b 4 5 6 7b (that'd be Dorian, IIRC) and that mode is spelled 1 2 3 4 5 6 7b (Mixolydian) and I just couldn't figure out how I was ever going to memorize all that. I began to write the actual notes out on a legal pad along with the modes and the following pattern occurred to me:

W-W-H-W-W-W-(H back to the root - where W is a whole-step and H is a half-step) - that's how you spell a major scale. Root to second is a whole-step, then another whole-step to the major third, etc. Starting at the second position, but keeping the pattern static got me the Dorian mode; third position got me the Phrygian mode, etc. Suddenly, I had it! These "modes" were simply a major scale, but started at different positions within the scale. What that gave me for guitar was, I could play any "mode" anywhere on the guitar by simply finding the related and familiar major-scale pattern. Starting at the sixth position gets you the natural minor scale (aka Aeolian mode), by the way.

Nerd school did not last long enough for me to figure out the 'harder' things like the modes of the Melodic Minor scale and all that more interesting sounding jazz stuff, but my point is (yes, after all that, there is a point) - I think everyone has to come to the guitar neck in their own way. Taking this information to a keyboard seems (to me) infinitely simpler (though I play keys so seldom, it certainly doesn't appear simple to me).

[e-isle rock]

Modes has been something that has thrown me for years. Just when I thought I knew them, I began second guessing myself. Years ago I learned all the modes in each key from a guitar instructor. And it was as Velorush said, a major scale but started at different positions within the scale. But if say, you were playing a G major scale and wanted to play G mixolydian which has a flat 7th, would you just play a G major scale starting on the fifth degree of the scale OR, instead play a G major scale with an F instead of an F#? Sorry, I know this probably elementary for most of you but this is one thing I just can't seem to wrap my head around. Thanks!

[dragan]

if you know the neck in all keys your ear will most likely sort out the modal stuff for you

[Dasein]

....W-W-H-W-W-W-(H back to the root - where W is a whole-step and H is a half-step) - that's how you spell a major scale. Root to second is a whole-step, then another whole-step to the major third, etc. Starting at the second position, but keeping the pattern static got me the Dorian mode; third position got me the Phrygian mode, etc. Suddenly, I had it! These "modes" were simply a major scale, but started at different positions within the scale. What that gave me for guitar was, I could play any "mode" anywhere on the guitar by simply finding the related and familiar major-scale pattern. Starting at the sixth position gets you the natural minor scale (aka Aeolian mode), by the way....

This is a great way to start to explore modes --- they can be and are that simple to begin with. Take each mode as a pattern up and down the neck and visualize those in relation to the pentatonic boxes ---- you've just opened the fretboard up and freed yourself from getting stuck in a box. That's awesome. What comes next is understanding and nailing the unique context of each mode itself as they relate to different keys and moods --- basically harnessing the power of the individual mode and it's unique ability to create a specific tonality.

[geoff_hartwell]

Interesting stuff for sure! The 5 pentatonic boxes are also actually modes - a scale form starting on each successive note.

I find it's best to think of these things in two ways - 1) as a continuation - the next "form" of a scale in the same key, and 2) as "modes".

Meaning, 1) if you are given an A major context, you can use all of the forms of A maj pentatonic up and down the neck as continuations of the original position. This is obviously great for expanding your reach on the neck. Likewise, you can use all of the modal forms or FINGERINGS as continuations of the A maj scale.

The 2nd way of thinking is more about treating each mode as a totally separate scale; as different as Major (Ionian) and Natural Minor (Aeolian). They both contain the same exact notes, but their harmonic content is very different in terms of their chords - Major= I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viidim and Minor=i, iidim, III, iv, v, VI, VII. This is especially important to learn with all of the diatonic modes, so that when you are faced with a minor i chord and a major IV chord for example, a la "Oye Como Va" starting from Am, you know immediately that you are dealing with Dorian; You have all of the minor pentatonic boxes in Am pentatonic, and all of the "forms" of G major, but need to know where all of your A notes are, and your basic Dorian patterns for a "home base".

It is comforting that there are only as many forms/modes as there are notes or starting points. Five notes in pentatonic, 5 forms. 7 notes in diatonic scales, 7 modal forms, 7 different chord sequences. Totally manageable. But I seriously suggest one goes case by case in order of usefulness. For example, you're not gonna find yourself in a lot of "Locrian" jams (hopefully... haha), but after Ionian and Aeolian, you should become familiar with Mixolydian (an altered major scale - maj scale with flat 7) and Dorian (altered minor - nat minor with maj 6). Then Lydian (another altered major scale with #4) and Phrygian (min with flat 2). I learned to do this by analyzing tons of songs I already knew in terms of roman numerals. They're all just major, minor chords and 7th chords. I was really surprised to find that the Police and King's X, The Stones and the Allman Brothers all used different modal progressions, but I learned a ton about using them with this context.

Extra credit - Now, if the scales are altered you get 7 MORE different modes. For example A harmonic minor is different from Nat minor because it's spelled A, B, C, D, E, F, G#. Since the G# is altered you get 7 harmonic minor modes that are different from the diatonic ones. And different chords that go with. Same goes for Melodic Minor - 7 more modes.

So you've got 7 diatonic modes, 7 melodic minor modes, and 7 harmonic minor modes. But the 5 basic pentatonic boxes are applicable for all cases!