Dasein Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 OK -- so I need the straight shit here - not the fan boy loyal to Hamer answer but the absolute straight shit on the Hamer Floyd Rose (made by Schaller). (My guitar is circa 1990/91/92 - I don't even remember anymore) So -- I've hardly used my trem ever -- and I prefer a hardtail because I swear I can hear and feel the attack difference on any floating bridge (and what I'll call tuning flutter). So my Cali's Floyd is lightly used and in no way abused. A few years ago I installed a TremelNo and was pleased as punch with it (I could do unison bends till the cows came home). So as I've been playing again after almost a two decades absence my Hamer has been getting more and more use as I record etc. I've had it professionally setup and intonated by a legendary guy who's logged lots of time with these (Hamer's in particular) but as I've gotten more comfortable with it I finally broke my Floyd rose cherry and have taken over intonation etc myself. I've always suspected that the Hamer Floyd was not as good as an OFR -- that there were some design compromises and possibly material compromises. The metal just feels "soft" to me and I really don't like the way you have to intonate it. I don't think there is enough contact to allow the saddles to go back as far as they might need before you run out of metal for the saddle screw to secure it. I've actually had them "slip" on me as well and I think one of my saddle screws "might" even be stripped... not sure... Plus -- you can't use a tool like The Key on the Schaller --- so you are stuck with this fiddly trial and error process that leaves you at the mercy of your ability to keep tension off the saddle as you push it back by hand and not lose your way..... So My Question is this --- Is the Hamer Schaller a step down from what is available? What's the best? I want the best. When I ordered my guitar back in the day I was surprised to see it equipped with the Schaller when it came - I didn't say anything at the time because I thought the factory would know best. Now -- Not so sure now. Can the folks here who really know these beasts chime in and give me the absolute truth on these Hamer Schaller Floyds? And as far as replacements go -- what should I be looking for (if warranted) and what's involved?
LucSulla Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 I suspect that Dr. Diablo shall soon provide a stirring distillation of all that is known to date about the Floyd Rose and its many variants.
Dasein Posted July 13, 2016 Author Posted July 13, 2016 9 minutes ago, LucSulla said: I suspect that Dr. Diablo shall soon provide a stirring distillation of all that is known to date about the Floyd Rose and its many variants. YA - he's the man I need to see about a dog for sure. It looks like one of my saddle screw holes has stripped sp I'm going to have to address this sooner rather than later.
zenmindbeginner Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 OFR = made by Schaller Hamer stamped Floyd = made by Schaller I replace the: nut blocks/screws... plus the saddle blocks/saddle mount screws and the string lock screws if I want to make an old Floyd new again. Zinc blocks sounds GREAT, don't believe the hype on the brass replacement blocks. Zinc has a good sound, lots of bite articulation and texture... I wouldn't trade that for extra warmth any day of the week. So, I take the Floyd apart and take some oil to all of the parts to clean them and protect the metal from oxidation. I then put it back together with the new parts and voila! it's a brand new acting Floyd!
Dasein Posted July 13, 2016 Author Posted July 13, 2016 What do you guys use to secure the saddle for intonation or do you trial error it?
DBraz Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 Schaller Lockmeister. OFR quality/feel/materials, Schaller fittings.
FGJ Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 I had an original FR from an 80's Kramer I bought back then and I never put it on my 1990 Cali for fear of intonation problems. However, I recently decided to make the swap, and I took all of the aftermarket parts off of the Hamer unit and placed them on the OFR and the thing dropped right in and required zero saddle adjustment -- it was intonated perfectly. Don't ask me how that happened, but it did. Does the OFR sound better? Well, I don't really hear a difference, so at best the knife edges will last longer on the OFR and I won't ever have to worry about stripping the intonation screws. Other than that, it looks awesome and performs well. Frankly, if I didn't already have the OFR in my possession, I wouldn't have changed the unit. However, if you've already stripped your intonation screws, it's definitely time to upgrade. I think Diablo favors the Gotoh, which is what the Suhr guitars come with as OEM vibratos, so they seem to be the best replacement unit these days.
Studio Custom Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 The Hamer stamped Schallers are known for saddle screws stripping out. Today there is a hardened insert at each screw location to prevent stripping, but this advancement came long after Hamer stopped buying Floyds in bulk.
Biz Prof Posted July 13, 2016 Posted July 13, 2016 15 hours ago, LucSulla said: I suspect that Dr. Diablo shall soon provide a stirring distillation of all that is known to date about the Floyd Rose and its many variants. Methinks this comment, alone, might be pin-worthy.
Victor (Fret Friend) Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 Not read the whole thread and I've been on holidayn 2 weeks but here's my two penny's worth; install a Gotoh! End of convo
Jeff R Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 In the case of new, me and I seem to recall Murkat Jay are big fans of the Gotoh Floyd as well. For NOS/used, I prefer seeking out/harvesting old school 80s Floyds from old Kramers and stuff like that. That generation of bridges simply seems more robust, more bulletproof, I guess just better metals as a whole. Another good one on the used/repurpose market If you can deal with its stock snap bar assembly and the bar's nylon washer woes are old school original Ibanez Edge trems. Ghost built by Gotoh Years and years ago, I bored out an Edge to take an original Floyd bar assembly and that mutt bridge was absolutely the cat's ass.
LucSulla Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 We have a thread on Floyds and Diablo hasn't posted yet. Someone should make sure that he's OK.
DBraz Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 3 hours ago, LucSulla said: We have a thread on Floyds and Diablo hasn't posted yet. Someone should make sure that he's OK. Do you know what? I'm worried about him... Earth to Jim, come in Jim?
murkat Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 6 hours ago, Jeff R said: In the case of new, me and I seem to recall Murkat Jay are big fans of the Gotoh Floyd as well. For NOS/used, I prefer seeking out/harvesting old school 80s Floyds from old Kramers The High end Gotoh is very nice, But, Like you, I do prefer the tried and true from old Kramers. You could at one time find real Kramers all over the place for pennies. Parts were worth more than the complete asking price. where's BobbyMarshall ? I too prefer the first gen bar system (thanks to Bobby for the link to years ago) I even go as far as threading the bar even more to get it closer to the bridge, than sticking up an inch away from.
Jeff R Posted July 15, 2016 Posted July 15, 2016 They're still out there, Jay, just a helluva lot harder to find due to guys like you and me, and not as pennies as they used to be. But still cheap - a couple months ago I nearly pulled a sweet mid-80s Floyd in black for $280 from a local pawn shop. The price wasn't that bad considering it had a used and abused mid-80s Kramer Voyager attached to it.
LucSulla Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 10 hours ago, DBraz said: Do you know what? I'm worried about him... Earth to Jim, come in Jim? The more I think about this, the more worrying it is. Is Jim on vacation or something?
DBraz Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 This is a great thread for him and I'm sure he'll contribute when he can.
diablo175 Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 Diablo's been working during this scintillating exchange and has missed an opportunity to contribute in a timely manner. 10+ hour day & no access to HFC will do that. FWIW this is what I can contribute and I apologize if it's already been stated: Schaller Floyd (which I normally call a Schaller Lic'd Floyd given the already established fact that Schaller manufactures the Original Floyd Rose as well as the LockMeister ) is in some regards, a step down from the OFR IMO. Most apparent in the earlier versions like the Hamer stamped version when Schaller was indeed using a softer metal for it's chunkier base plate and as a result the screw holes for the saddles would routinely strip. Hamer corrected this with hardened steel inserts for the screw holes but the base plate was still a softer metal and likely accounts for the different tonality some say is to be had with a Schaller. It's been described as "warmer" and I would agree with that to some extent. Schaller's also use hardened steel knife edge inserts vs. the OFR and others, where the knife edges are actually ground from the edge of the base plate itself. There is NO way to easily intonate a Schaller unless you have the shortened OFR style string screws... but I'll get to that later. Suffice it to say, intonating a Schaller will just be a PITA and then make certain you never change string gauges or tunings. On a personal note, I still have several Schallers on a couple of my Cali's and they perform well enough that I've opted not to replace them. That should tell you all you need to know about the level of their performance. Before I list the others I have experience with it might be worthwhile mentioning that any system other than a Schaller in your Cali's runs the risk of having intonation issues due to limited room for saddle movement or it not fitting in the cavity. Schallers have slightly shorter length base as well as shorter strings screws. This can possibly be remedied with Schaller-made OFR style shorter string screws but there are still potential issue with intonation and screw overhang. My preferred bridge is and always has been an OFR but I will fully disclose that much of that likely lies in my being comfortable with that unit from 33 years of playing one. It has definite advantages over the Schaller re: the aforementioned soft metal base plate and the longer string screws which allow for easier intonation. On a personal note, I have found OFRs to be more consistent and more dynamic in their performances. To be fair I have also noted a slight decline in manufacturing quality in recent years. Schaller's LockMeister is, as DBraz mentioned, essentially an OFR with a few minor improvements, namely, hardened posts (and other hardware) which supposedly lengthen the life and enhance performance but probably wear down the knife edges that much faster. This has proven to be an excellent replacement for the Schaller IF you get the shortened string screws from Schaller. This in of itself is a bit of a hassle but do-able. Be forewarned: even with the shortened screws, the base plate is still a match for OFR's and as such will put saddles about 1/16" back initially and as I;ve intonated one or two like this, I found that the strings screws STILL extended over the pull up rout. Here's a little secret- unless you're REALLY pulling that bar up (which is highly unlikely especially if you have a big block under it as I do on all mine), the Cali's are built/designed such that the bridge height is already up enough that the screws won't hit the body. Gotoh's higher end Floyd is a fine option as well with numerous design improvements (for some) like beveled saddles, angled mini tuners, a push-in bar ala early Floyds and Ibanez Edges, a straight knife edge on one side, spring channels and a lock down option on the bottom of the block. My admittedly limited time on Gotohs did NOT win me over as they felt kinda of meh; their slightly smaller diameter-ed bar really irked me and would not stay put when I wanted it to no matter how much I tightened the friction screws.. Outside of my anecdotal qualms, it's a finely made unit with high quality materials. Another option that's available is the FU Tone Floyd which has several of the Gotoh improvements and other additions like an allen wrench on the end of the bar's insert portion. Bottom line is it boils down to personal preference. Once the inherent limitations of the guitar and those of the bridge determine which Floyd you can use, then it's a matter of personal preference to determine which you want to use.
diablo175 Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 8 hours ago, DBraz said: ^^ Here here! That was worth waiting for! Thanks, but nothing new or ground breaking, my friend. Just info that's been gathered by many over the years and disseminated again. Just hope it's helpful. Lotta misinformation out there and as stated, subjectivity and personal preferences factor in, too.
diablo175 Posted July 16, 2016 Posted July 16, 2016 34 minutes ago, LucSulla said: I feel balance has been restored to the force. Indeed. If someone has been put on the path towards the Righteous Floyd with a little guidance, then all is right in the world.
Biz Prof Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 "These are not the Floyds you're looking for." ~ Obi Wan Diablo.
Dasein Posted July 17, 2016 Author Posted July 17, 2016 Do you guys have any specific recommendations or part numbers for the heli-coils for stripped saddle screws? Now obviously there's a certain amount of labour in drilling out the plate and installing the heli-coil (I assume a drill press is needed or can I just hand drill this?) -- would it be better just to get a new base plate? Also - as you can see from this shot, with my tremol-no installed the clearance of the spring on the one side of the cavity is just not enough - it sometimes touches by a hair so I'm thinking of drilling a new spring hole just a few mm over -- is now the time to consider a new block altogether. I think these are 37. What makes a good or better block? I just hate intonation issues -- do you guys use a formula of offsets at all for Floyds or is it strictly 12th fret harmonic to fretted note?
diablo175 Posted July 17, 2016 Posted July 17, 2016 19 minutes ago, Biz Prof said: "These are not the Floyds you're looking for." ~ Obi Wan Diablo. "I sense the Floyd is strong in this one" - Darth Shredder
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.