Duncan JB-J vs JB-L?

[diablo175]

The exalted and revered JB's wound by Ms Juarez are something right out of guitar lore. In my quest to try one, I ended up with a JB-L when a retailer mistakenly sold me the wrong one. What little info I've come across says it was wound by Lidia Daniel. There isn't really any other info or indication that it differs from a Maricella-wound JB-J. Supposedly identical resistance and winding (BTW- it was reported that they were all machine wound, merely overseen by whomever's initial was stamped on the base)  though, it IS stamped with Seymour Duncan, indicating it's one from the end of the "Juarez-era" offerings, right before they stopped having "winders" initials stamped on with the model.

Any insight into the JB-L JB's would be greatly appreciated.

[bubs_42]

You have pretty much done all the work for yourself already. After buying a ton of old SD Pickups, the one thing I really look for is the Era it was made in. Just like any company, they go through process changes, materials and so on. If you have a wax labeled  with the model and the initial you good if that is what your looking for. 

[diablo175]

2 hours ago, bubs_42 said:

You have pretty much done all the work for yourself already. After buying a ton of old SD Pickups, the one thing I really look for is the Era it was made in. Just like any company, they go through process changes, materials and so on. If you have a wax labeled  with the model and the initial you good if that is what your looking for. 

I was looking for any input/insights as to differences between the Juarez and Lidia wound version of the JB.

[bubs_42]

@diablo175, nothing man, just smoke and mirrors. What does matter like I said, is the Era, if you were looking for a specific Era (labels, ink, ect) your good to go. Now if you want to know if someone is going to give some extra cash for a J wound instead of an L wound, the answer is yes. Why, because the internet said its better.  

[DBraz]

You know my thoughts Jim.

I have had a few JB pickups from the more modern era and liked them but wasn't wowed.  Including in the Blue Cali Custom I bought from you.  They were good but not stand out good.  After wondering recently why my double Cali sounded soooo good I did some investigative work.  The Seymour Duncan pickups were JBJ's.  Digging around my parts box I found another late 80's/early 90's JBJ and wired it into my Centaura.  It sounds absolutely awesome. It just transformed the guitar.

To that end I tracked another one down, another 80's JBJ, and wired it in my single neck Cali Custom on Monday evening.  It sounds incredible.

I'll disagree with some in that I think there IS a difference.

[diablo175]

55 minutes ago, DBraz said:

I'll disagree with some in that I think there IS a difference.

My curiosity remains: given that the JB-L and the JB-J were of the same era but different winding station operators (Lidia and Jaurez respectively) what, if any, sonic difference is there between the two versions?  Has anyone on here played the 2 side by side, i.e. A-B'ed them?

[DBraz]

I have not A-B'd them but I seemed to remember reading that Mrs J indicated that winding them tight made a difference.  

The only way to be 100% is to do a proper test but there seems to be a lot of love out there for JBJ's and not so much for the later ones.  The earlier ones also used different materials.

Where there's a human element I am sure there's a difference.

I won't be buying a modern JB as I never kept any.  In fact, on a Cali Custom, I thought the PATB was better.  I remember doing that A-B test.

The JBJ in turn is better - to me- than that same PATB in the same Cali Custom.

[texwest]

I have a four old Custom Custom pickups.  Two wound by Maricela Jaurez and two wound by Lydia.  The best one was wound by Lydia. That one always has blown me away and all my band mates in the past told me that guitar sounded so good.  Of those four pickups the weakest one, tone wise, was wound by Maricela.  They are all extremely close.  I think Lydia was doing a good job too.

I have compared these to modern production Custom Custom's and all of the old ones are  better.  So I agree with Bubs about duncans.  Era is important.  There were the earlier ones with a sticker that looked like they used a stamp that would say JBJ or 59NJ. Those stickers had rounded corners.  After that there were ones that used a rectangular sticker that looked a little different with a plainer font and some of them have the builder code and some don't.  These still sound good to me.  But once you get into the 2000's and there are alot more codes on the pickups, I don't think they sound as good.

One thing I can say is that I have tried many 59 neck pickups and the old ones wound  by Maricela are much better than the  newer ones.  Not even close.

Bottom line is that you should experiment with pickups and see what works in that instrument.

[Studio Custom]

We do realize the only possible variable is the amount of windings right? 

[bubs_42]

1 hour ago, Studio Custom said:

We do realize the only possible variable is the amount of windings right? 

If the pickups are the same era, then sure. Materials, tolerencing, production process, human error, ect all come into play. But if the buyer is only going to make the purchase because M or L wound the pickup that is all that is going to matter to them. Personally i've own a set of early wound by SD himself 59 and they were the best, amazing clarity, tons of character, they just had that thing. Now did the next set he wound sound like that?

[Disturber]

15 hours ago, Studio Custom said:

We do realize the only possible variable is the amount of windings right? 

My guess is, as Dbraz mentioned above, how tight they are wired could also make a difference. And if the wire is even on the coil, or thicker at top or bottom etc.
Less tight would mean more wire for the same amount of turns. But more or less turns would mean that the output would vary - and the JB seems pretty consitent. So we could probably assume they are wired pretty much the same.

I have a 1970's "The JB model" in my Super Pro. I don't know if it's the semi hollow body or the fact that it's older that makes it sound different from other JB's I've had. But it has that organic Warren De Martini tone Out of the Cellar / Invasion tone to it. Great sound. And if I roll it back to 7-8 it stays clear and sounds like a good paf. Very versatile and useful.
I always have the volume on 7-8, and it sounds like a great classic rock paf. Then for solos, or if I just want gain, I turn it up to 10. Then It really sings, like the JB does like that.

I'ts the best pickup I've had in the Super Pro as it gives it fattness, and gain when needed. And it keeps the low strings tight like a solid body, with just a touch of airiness.

I've been slammin' the JB a lot as the last Hamer's I had with the JB did not sound this good. They had more of an unpleasant mid hump and sounded more compressed and dull. But I've had other JB equipped Hamer's that sounded good. All of those were more one trick ponies as they did not sound as great with the volume rolled back as my Super Pro does, with "The JB model".  Again, don't know if it's the pickup or the guitar itself that contributes to this.

[1foggy]

I ended up with an MJ-wound pickup by accident.   I bought an old Kramer from a guy and it had a black humbucker in it.  I asked him what it was and he said that the guitar tech that installed it told him that it was a Duncan Distortion, but that he thought it had rather low output for a distortion.   I take it apart and it's an MJ-wound Jazz Neck humbucker lol.  No wonder he thought it didn't have enough output for a bridge pickup in a metal guitar.   I still have it sitting around, not really sure what to do with it.

[bubs_42]

18 hours ago, 1foggy said:

I ended up with an MJ-wound pickup by accident.   I bought an old Kramer from a guy and it had a black humbucker in it.  I asked him what it was and he said that the guitar tech that installed it told him that it was a Duncan Distortion, but that he thought it had rather low output for a distortion.   I take it apart and it's an MJ-wound Jazz Neck humbucker lol.  No wonder he thought it didn't have enough output for a bridge pickup in a metal guitar.   I still have it sitting around, not really sure what to do with it.

That is funny, not even close to a Distortion. LOL If you not going to use it, sell it. 

[Jeff R]

On an MJ-related note, I recently custom-ordered a set of Antiquity humbuckers for a client (I'm a Duncan dealer) and was quite pleasantly surprised to see "MJ" initialed in script ink on the back of both of them. They went in my guy's Les Paul Classic and it sounded absolutely incredible. I just custom-ordered another set of Antiquities for another client (a much, much more experienced and skilled player with three decades of LP experience) and his set arrived yesterday. Again, "MJ" initialed in script ink on the backs. If his set (destined for his primary gigging Standard) sounds as unbelievably good as the set in that Classic, I am ordering a set for my LP immediately because I will be more inclined to believe my first exposure wasn't a fluke and that they are in fact the cat's ass for a LP.

What's so special about them? Compared to the also-A2s in the LP, Duncan Slash sigs in my LP Standard, the MJ Antiquities in the Classic have a slightly more pronounced, sweeter high end with no ice; a very, very subtly scooped and honk-less midrange; and insane touch and pot sensitivity, particularly as it pertains to gain more than volume  - 10 means 10, 8 means 8, 5 means 5 in the gain spectrum, and gain-plus-volume roll-off wasn't prevalent until the 0-4 range. That control on the knobs mixed with that sweet high end equals not only tones but versatility. Really expands the bag of tricks under one's hands.

[scottcald]

Thanks for posting that Jeff.  The serial numbers are good to see as well, since I've read that both Seymour and MJ keep very detailed notes about their builds.  Will you be sharing a tone test with us?  

[Jeff R]

Tone tests are so hokey, I hate 'em, they either sound like absolute crap or Steely Dan studio outtakes, you are so at the mercy of the recording gear, the amp, the room, any effects, etc. But I'm overdue to shoot a fresh video for the shop's Facebook page, so I'll make it a point to run some A/V when my client gets me the guitar and I do the switcheroo. You got it.

[bubs_42]

@Jeff R The best set of Seymour's I have ever played were the Red Label, wound by Seymour himself. The neck pup was so clear, with a hint of blue and the bridge had a great balance, and also straddled the lines of bright but bluesy. I had them in my 4 digit for a long time and sold them them when I cleaned out the pickup drawer. Currently in my R8 I have an Alnico II Pro set wound by MJ and they sound great, they have a unique sound. 

[scottcald]

2 hours ago, Jeff R said:

Tone tests are so hokey, I hate 'em, they either sound like absolute crap or Steely Dan studio outtakes, you are so at the mercy of the recording gear, the amp, the room, any effects, etc. But I'm overdue to shoot a fresh video for the shop's Facebook page, so I'll make it a point to run some A/V when my client gets me the guitar and I do the switcheroo. You got it.

Yeah, I hate when it's someone who is regularly doing this stuff and they don't make any effort for good sound.  If it's hey, I'm tossing this up quickly, then you give some leeway.  At any rate, thanks Jeff, I'll be excited to hear.  

[Disturber]

On 4/28/2018 at 3:21 PM, Jeff R said:

On an MJ-related note, I recently custom-ordered a set of Antiquity humbuckers for a client (I'm a Duncan dealer) and was quite pleasantly surprised to see "MJ" initialed in script ink on the back of both of them. 

What's so special about them? Compared to the also-A2s in the LP, Duncan Slash sigs in my LP Standard, the MJ Antiquities in the Classic have a slightly more pronounced, sweeter high end with no ice; a very, very subtly scooped and honk-less midrange; and insane touch and pot sensitivity, particularly as it pertains to gain more than volume  - 10 means 10, 8 means 8, 5 means 5 in the gain spectrum, and gain-plus-volume roll-off wasn't prevalent until the 0-4 range. That control on the knobs mixed with that sweet high end equals not only tones but versatility. Really expands the bag of tricks under one's hands.

 

 

 

I love my set of Ants in my Korina Standard. I think MJ winds all the custom shop stuff, or?? 

My set is from 1996. So I guess Seymour could have wound them himself. I think he did them in the beginning, they introduced the Antiquities in 1995. They have polished mags. They later ones have roughcasts. I thought my pair were to weak in output so I had the mags fully charged. Since then they have been incredible. So sweet sounding. Drives the amp just right and cuts through. Sounds meaty but still bright, jazzy and bluesy clean, just the way I want, and they sound pretty mean overdriven. But still sweet.

[Ting Ho Dung]

On 4/28/2018 at 9:50 AM, Jeff R said:

Tone tests are so hokey, I hate 'em, they either sound like absolute crap or Steely Dan studio outtakes, you are so at the mercy of the recording gear, the amp, the room, any effects, etc. But I'm overdue to shoot a fresh video for the shop's Facebook page, so I'll make it a point to run some A/V when my client gets me the guitar and I do the switcheroo. You got it.

And don't forget extreme compression on YouTube and FB. 

Zen did some very good A/B comparisons especially with the JB (IIRC). The problem with hearing the difference was the YouTube compression. 

[The Shark]

My "Pat Travers" 1965 Melody Maker has a set of MJ Antiquities from 2007.  I can't remember how I know that.  The initials might be on the pickups themselves or I read an article in a magazine about the "corksniffery" of JB pickups specifically or Seymour pickups wound by Ms. Juarez at that time.  All I can tell you is that they are the best Seymour pickups I own.  I don't know why.  Could be the guitar.  Could be the vintage electronics.  Could be that I want it to sound like Pat. 

[Jeff R]

My client hasn't come with his LP for me to install this new set of ATQs yet, plus I've been busy as all hell, so no A/V still.

In the meantime, I'll echoplex The Shark on your not needing a maple top cap to stun gun yourself ... this 1962 Les Paul Standard came in for a bridge replacement and spa day last week. Its new factory-aged Gotoh TOM is one of several changes its received in relatively recent times, the other notables being a period correct Polaris White refin in recent years (that's already showing discoloration and wear) and a set of MJ-wound Antiquities. I"m sure the righteous vintage platform contributes (!) but either way, the sound of this guitar is absolutely incredible, dirty, clean and in between. 

A few glamour shots ... you won't see one of these every day.